Socialism is like Recycling, both make you feel nice, but that's about it.

Only thing worth recycling that is actually cheaper to recycle than make new ones is aluminum cans. Everything else is BS as told by those wisemen Penn and Teller.

- GX
"I have no answers to your questions, but I can question your demands." - Motto Inspired by Laibach's WAT

There are several fairies that visit me regularly and I have a great relationship with Santa's elves.


"to dream the impossible dream..."

Socialism is indeed an incredible ideal, and it is also true that it has not yet worked. The problem with socialism in todays world is that of capitalism.

Do you guys like working? If you're an ordinary person, you don't, and thus, socialism is perfect for you. With our technology today, one man can produce sufficient clothing for 10,000
people, think about the implications of that. If one man is capable of the much production, and everyone else is similar, the amount of free time people would have would be absolutely astonishing. A socialist nation cannot survive for very long when it has to cope with Capitalist nations, which are so common today. While citizens in a socialist country would have everything necessary to survive, the amount of gadgets, etc, that capitalist countires produce would be very appealing to that socialist citizen.

And while many countries do not have the necessary resources to support themselves entirely on their own, they are forced to trade with countires who have those resources, and are often Capitalist. Now lets say half of the earth was socialist, there would be no problem, as trade between true socialist countries is far simpler than that between socialist/communist countires.

In terms of practicality, socialism is there. You guys are certianly right about how hard it would be for socialism to succeed in todays world, but if things keep progressing the way they are, and the middle class is eliminated, which seems to be happening these days, that transition will be much much easier. Think about not having to buy anything, there would be no managing 401k's, retirement funds, mortgages, etc etc etc. If you work, you are given those things you want, when you get old and cannot, you have a pension of sorts... Seems pretty damn nice to me.

As nice as it would be, there is no way in hell this would happen in neither mine, noe my grandchildrens years....

Only thing worth recycling that is actually cheaper to recycle than make new ones is aluminum cans. Everything else is BS as told by those wisemen Penn and Teller.

Not only that, but each time I recycle, I take away another opportunity from a homeless person to make some money.

I think it's much like the democratic ideal. It's never worked perfectly, but it makes life easier to think that the problems we face are caused by a misinterpretation rather than a flaw in the theory itself.

Yeah, and like the democratic ideal, it is good when it's mixed with other systems. Rather than debating whether socialism should be the law of the land, it should be how much socialism will improve the world.

Socialism, IMHO, just isn't for humans till we find a way to get rid of "monster" in all of us that makes we want to expolt or steal from each other. Found a socialism country and corrupt ones will thank you then take it over.

That won't ever happen though. It's natural to fight for one's own interests, and if the system can't use that motive to benefit everybody for the most part, then it's not going to work.

Do you guys like working? If you're an ordinary person, you don't, and thus, socialism is perfect for you. With our technology today, one man can produce sufficient clothing for 10,000 people, think about the implications of that. If one man is capable of the much production, and everyone else is similar, the amount of free time people would have would be absolutely astonishing. A socialist nation cannot survive for very long when it has to cope with Capitalist nations, which are so common today. While citizens in a socialist country would have everything necessary to survive, the amount of gadgets, etc, that capitalist countires produce would be very appealing to that socialist citizen.

But the technology has to be created, everything has to be shipped, the energy for that needs to be produced, etc. If a socialist nation can't compete with a capitalist one, doesn't that say something about socialism?

In terms of practicality, socialism is there. You guys are certianly right about how hard it would be for socialism to succeed in todays world, but if things keep progressing the way they are, and the middle class is eliminated, which seems to be happening these days, that transition will be much much easier. Think about not having to buy anything, there would be no managing 401k's, retirement funds, mortgages, etc etc etc. If you work, you are given those things you want, when you get old and cannot, you have a pension of sorts... Seems pretty damn nice to me.

If everybody was given what they want, we'd all have mansions, limousines, robot maids, etc.

And therein lies a big part of the problem. If the people in a socialist society truly don't like working, what's to get them to work when things are provided for them automatically?

I'd also miss the individuality of capitalism. There's something more satisfying about being in a dead-end job with a possibility of getting a better one than to be in a dead-end job for the rest of your life because the government chose it for you.

Hahahaha. You're kidding, right?

Don't you ever see people looking through garbage cans for soda cans to recycle? It might not be much money, but if everybody were to recycle, that'd be less money for them, and I'm sure they need the twenty dollars they can get from recycling more than we do.

Reply #11 By: Gideon MacLeish - 9/25/2004 3:22:31 PM ahahaha. You're kidding, right? Sandy, No, messy's not kidding. That was our primary income for a month.

Mine too for a little while!

The problem with socialism is that it breeds complacency. Ambition to succeed is an option and for those who strive for success and attain it, it becomes their responsibility to carry an ever growing load. In a perfect world, humanity would be free from the shackles of currency and the definition of ambition would be to better ones self - not the acquisition of material wealth. Sort of a bartering system where everyone filled a need according to their abillities. Unfortunately, humanity is still riddled with greed, dishonesty, corruption, and deception so all of the above has and will fail without exception. Until mankind evolves beyond our current shortcomings, capitalism (with all it's flaws) is the best incentive to get those lazy butts out of bed every morning in search of a better future.

Oh and oligarchy314
I know a garbage man or two that started out neck deep in trash and now own their own garbage collection services making more cash than a lot of doctors. Dedication can be just as profitable as IQ in many cases.

Zobelisk: Do you know the defintion of the word average? Of course their are some garbagemen that have a higher IQ than some doctors. That is why I used the word "average" instead of "all".

Since socialism doesn't work well except in small doses as America has it, why even bother supporting some make-believe utopia that'll never be? It might be nicer, but niceness doesn't do as much for the world as practicality.

But Messy, the socialists that you are discussing with are only trying to discount the failures of implementing socialism, not socialism itself. What they mean to say is that socialism is so self-evidentially right that you cannot dismiss socialism, you just have to excuse those who have failed to implement it correctly!

Grim Xiozan:

Only thing worth recycling that is actually cheaper to recycle than make new ones is aluminum cans.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but this statement is woefully wrong. It is cost effective to recycle many items (eg. cars, newspapers).

Back to Messy:

Not only that, but each time I recycle, I take away another opportunity from a homeless person to make some money.

I don't know where you live, but there is no opportunity (market) for scavengers in my town. Besides, if you extend this logic then every time that you do something for yoursefl (wash your car, shovel your walk, cut your grass), then you are taking away from a homeless person. That's not quite accurate.

If more people had Socialist values, the world would be a MUCH nicer place to live in. You don't need a Socialist Government to make socialism work.....You yourself can make it work in your macro world. What is wrong with a society based on equallity of opportunity and social welfare?..Have a nice day y'all.

Reply #18 By: Bunnahabhain - 9/26/2004 3:28:25 AM I don't know where you live, but there is no opportunity (market) for scavengers in my town. Besides, if you extend this logic then every time that you do something for yoursefl (wash your car, shovel your walk, cut your grass), then you are taking away from a homeless person. That's not quite accurate.

So I take it there are NO recycling centers where you live? If so then there IS a market! Because that's where you turn it in! If not *where* do you send your recyclables?

So I take it there are NO recycling centers where you live? If so then there IS a market! Because that's where you turn it in! If not *where* do you send your recyclables?

We have a recycling program run by the city. Collection cycle varies a bit based upon where you live, but there is a blue box for bottles, cans, and certain plastics. There is a gray box for paper products. Trash is separate. A pilot project exists for compostable materials,. but I don't know much about it.

If there is some sort of recycling center around, I don't know about it. With the city running the program that they do, I don't know if that leaves much room for competition.

If you have a recycling program then you *have* a recycling center!

That does not neccesarily mean that a person can redeem cans for money. Look at your cans and bottles. It says right on them which states have a plan in place that gives rebates to industrious recyclers. Many states have recycling programs but offer no financial incentive. There is only an emotional incentive or a legislation that mandates recycling. Not everyone lives in the same system that you guys apparently do.

Capitalism favors the risk takers, the investors, the people with fire and ambition and lets those lacking drive and commitment to suffer at their own hands. Socialism would bring up those who have no amibition and bring down those with the drive. Explain to me why that would be right? That, to me, would be the greatest injustice of all..and the biggest failing of socialism in any form.

I would have to agree with this statement. Without a motive to innovate and work hard, the society stagnates and the industrious among them emigrate to places where they are not stifled but instead, rewarded. Which is a good thing for America since immigrants that come here seeking opportunity typically do very well and contribute greatly to our society, economy, and culture. Now if only the homegrown populace would "get it."