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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Zoomba’s Guide to Debating For Liberals

How to not look like a loon when debating politics @ JoeUser

Welcome to JoeUser Mr./Ms. Liberal. You are about to embark on a wild and crazy journey through the little community on the web we’ve worked so hard to build. As a fellow Liberal-minded person, I feel it is my duty to both welcome you and warn you of what you’re about to get involved in.

At first glance, it will look like this is a right-wing run site. It will look like the liberals here have been run off with torches and pitchforks. If you’re way way far out on the left, it will look like the handful of poor liberals here have been persecuted and then banned by the authoritarian evil that is Draginol… vile owner of this site and CEO of Stardock Inc.

If that’s your impression, you’d be pretty wrong.

Well, except on the first part… The conservatives definitely outnumber the liberals here, but that’s mostly because some of our Leftist friends have failed to learn a few important lessons on how to discuss and debate issues with people who disagree with your viewpoint.

So this article is for you, the unsuspecting Liberal that has stumbled upon this site through some mix of accident and fate. Hopefully, if you follow these simple guidelines, you’ll be able to hold your own as a liberal on JoeUser. The saner, rational Liberals we have here, the better chance we have to actually have real, interesting, worthwhile debates on politics here. If this list seems too taxing/difficult for you to follow, then perhaps sites like DemocraticUnderground are more your speed, because you won’t last very long here.

And now, without further delay, I present my list of “Guidelines to Debating For Liberals”

1. Present your view, NOT how you perceive the opposition
This is a very important point that most just misses completely, especially at the start of a discussion. It is important to establish your opinion on a subject firmly and clearly before you launch into disagreeing with others. Failure to do this makes it look like you don’t have any idea of what the “right” view is, but that you simply know what’s “wrong” when you see it. Don’t attack a position without presenting an alternative first.

2. Remember, you are NOT your political position
Your views and opinions are a piece of who you are, just as they’re a piece of who someone else is. There is a LOT more to a person than their views on any given subject. This means that if someone disagrees with you, do not take it personally. At the same time, if you disagree with someone, do not make it out like you disagree with them as a person. Attacking someone and saying they’re a bad person because they disagree with you shows you have a fairly tenuous grasp on reality and are probably taking the debate too seriously.

3. Do NOT involve polls/surveys
Don’t even try to trot out the latest survey or poll regarding any topic. No one accepts any poll results that don’t match their beliefs. If you present a Liberal poll, the conservatives will attack it for being left biased. We do the same thing when they pull out polls to. Fact is, no matter who conducted the poll, who compiled it, how biased or unbiased it is, whichever side it disagrees with will discard it as being trash. Polls reinforce your own beliefs but do nothing to challenge those of others. I’ve seen it countless times where someone will present a poll, the other side will come back and say it’s a biased poll and then present their own poll as proof that the other poll is biased. Everyone thinks their resource is the bias-free one, no one is willing to compromise on it. Don’t even try this tactic, and just ignore anyone who tries to make a point using a poll.

4. Choose your words carefully
Here’s a quick list of words to avoid when debating with conservatives:
• Neocon
• Sheeple
• Bushie
• Zealot
• Nazi
• Racist
• Religious Nut
• Homophobe

Those, and other terms like them, bring nothing to the discussion, and as soon as you resort to them, you’ve admitted that you either have no valid point or are incapable of expressing it.

This also goes for swearing and general insults. Failure to keep a civil tone is a clear indicator that you have lost. Even if others resort to this first, or start attacking YOU, keep the moral high ground by remaining civil. It will make you look good and whoever is attacking you look like a pathetic moron who can’t hold their ground against you.

5. Learn the definition of "Tolerance"
Main Entry: tol·er·ance
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : ENDURANCE, FORTITUDE, STAMINA
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION
3 : the allowable deviation from a standard; especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

Note at no point does it say you have to AGREE or ACCEPT a differing viewpoint or opinion, simply that you must endure it, or allow it to be. Example: I tolerate extremely Evangelical Christians, but I do not agree or accept their message or their practices, but I tolerate them, I leave them alone and do not try to stop them from doing their thing so long as it doesn't get in my face.

Learn the difference between tolerance and acceptance. This will make many things a great deal clearer

Follow these five, simple, rules and you’ll do far better than many past liberals on this site have. You’ll be able to better hold your own against our resident conservatives, and maybe just maybe you’ll help turn around the popular notion here that liberals are driven entirely by emotion and lack the ability to think rationally and objectively about a topic.

But just remember, disagreement with a position is not an insult to you as a person, they just have a different opinion than you!

Come back next time when I reveal the secret behind winning elections, passing gay marriage laws (i.e. ones that allow them) and regaining the respect we once had

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Zoomba, as a conservative, there is nothing that gets my blood boiling more than a liberal that simply disagrees with current policy and offers no alternative.

I can learn something from # 2 and 4 myself. I have been guilty of both in a fit of anger.

I like to think I am very tolerant, just not of people guilty of committing the sins of # 1.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

It really all just boils down to keeping an even temper and not letting other people get under your skin. If you manage to stay above the fray, you come away smelling like a rose and those who continued to duke it out smelling like garbage. You can win a debate very easily at this site without ever actually proving your point, all you have to do is keep a civil and measured tone.

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BTW, very nice article, I forgot to thank you for that.

May I offer up a # 6?

6. You are not a spell checker.
If you attack someone's spelling (more than likely typing) errors, you have lost all credibility in my book. It gives the impression that due to the lack of a viable alternative viewpoint, you are lowered to mere attacks of one's grammar.

Here's a possible # 7.

7. If you must send a link, make it factual
Too often one sends a link that pretends to be fact based by throwing out dates and figures, but is quickly shown to be an opion based piece with a slant towards one side or the other.

for example: "On October 17, 2012; Twelve people were killed by the National Front for Liberation of the Unliberated. This was due to the buttheaded policies of President Whomever at the time."

We were doing fine until the "This was due" part. I like links that stick to the facts, but that's just me. Like a poll, it can made to read however the author wants it to unless it sticks to the facts alone.

Thanks again and I look forward to your future articles.

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Cordelia

Join Date 07/2002

Zoomba, an excellent article as usual. Although I do think both sides - or rather, all sides as I do try to encourage the idea that there are more than 2 parties - could benefit from the advice. So often these "debates" are not really debates but mudslinging from both sides. I try and stay out of the fray. Better to remain silent and have people think I don't know anything than to open my mouth and remove all doubt.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Yeah, both sides could definitely benefit from the list, but it just seems like the left here has had a harder time with these concepts than the right overall (though there are definite, glaring exceptions).

I would love to see an end to the articles from the right that specifically attack leftist bloggers (as well as the other way around). I would love to see the end of blogs cheering someone being banned/silenced. I would love to see an end to the self-righteous attitude from the right as much as the infuriated indignation from the left. There's a lot of changes I'd like to see here, but it's all gotta be done in baby steps.

I directed the list at liberals in the title mainly because I really want to see the left put up a better fight than they are currently. Even though I'm more moderate than most, and generally get along with the more conservative people here, it still hurts a bit to see the constant stream of left-bashing posts we see here. I'd like to see a little more balance to the viewpoints presented... I'd also like those viewpoints to be better articulated and discussed.

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Excellent article which should be required reading upon creation of an account.

Failure to keep a civil tone is a clear indicator that you have lost

Nothing spells defeat more than a personal insult. While I have become so frustrated with someone's apparent lack of ability to formulate a coherent thought on occassion and lashed out with an insult, it is bad form and in itself demonstrates a lack of ability to formulate a coherent thought. Insult=Loss

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"Failure to keep a civil tone is a clear indicator that you have lost"

I don't agree. I insult quite frequently, and I don't think I 'lose' very often at all. Argument is an art like anything else, and insults are just a tool. Like any other tool, some people don't know how to use them and hack off a finger or two.

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Sorry Baker, but as far as I'm concerned (can't speak for anyone else) the moment someone results to insults instead of debating the actual points of contention they lose all credibility.

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I would love to see an end to the articles from the right that specifically attack leftist bloggers (as well as the other way around). I would love to see the end of blogs cheering someone being banned/silenced. I would love to see an end to the self-righteous attitude from the right as much as the infuriated indignation from the left. There's a lot of changes I'd like to see here, but it's all gotta be done in baby steps.

I've taken part in this, too, and while they probably weren't the smartest things I've ever written, I felt they were necessary. I get defensive when bloggers who have no idea who I am attack me and mine personally. And it's absolutely NOT called for. I disagree with any number of bloggers here, left OR right, on any given day. But do I allow myself to call names, cuss, etc.? No, I don't, because I don't believe those types of actions get us anywhere, and anyone with any kind of logic skills at all would know that as well. You want to make a point? Don't call me a fatass sexless cow, research your idea, and write it down. That's all there is to it.

I tend to be a moderate conservative myself...but I would have done the SAME thing had conservative bloggers tore me down like that. ~shrugs~ No regrets. It's over and done with and I've learned from it and have moved on...

Excellent article, Zoom.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

To me, if you have to resort to insults in an argument or debate, then you've run out of valid points to present. Insults add nothing, they don't help your point, all they do is attempt to bait whoever you're arguing with into tossing insults back at you (at which point I've seen many here declare moral victory... Calor was right on at least ONE count).

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You are going to ruin all the fun if they really take your advice! Oh well, I guess we will have to stick to the facts in the future.

And Eric, there are spell checkers for most browsers. Of course I just learned about them in the past couple of weeks, so hopefully my Spelling will improve now.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

I don't get what he was complaining about in the articles he referenced. I'm just saying he was right in that there are times where the conservatives will start hurling insults (though no swearing usually) and then go nuts when the liberal in question becomes enraged and starts hurling insults back. It's baiting, and it works exceptionally well with some users here.

That was pretty much the only point Calor had right.

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don't get what he was complaining about in the articles he referenced. I'm just saying he was right in that there are times where the conservatives will start hurling insults (though no swearing usually) and then go nuts when the liberal in question becomes enraged and starts hurling insults back. It's baiting, and it works exceptionally well with some users here.

You sorry excuse for a Zoomba! I am now taking the title back and you can stew in your rot or rot in your stew!

I am Zoomba!

oh, wait. then I have to be liberal. Ok, carry on. Zoomba!

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Eh, that's two posts in a row I've almost totally agreed with today. I'm doing well. Considering they were both by conservatives...and conservatives and I don't really mix well a lot of the time.

A helpful guide. i understand {and readily acknowledge} why you targeted this towards liberals, though I think I might go so far as to reccommend that you change it and jsut target it towards everyone. Liberals are more noticed, I think, when stuff like this crops up {the bashing, attacking, etc}, because we ARE so few in number. Therefore, when we do show our faces, we get a lot mroe attention. Mostly because most everyone disagrees with us- I notice that a lot of the threads bashing liberals are hailed by many members here, while the threads bashing conservatives are scorned, etc.

I scorn them all. It's pointless, and personal attacks on all sides, angles and radii are also pointless, and the only thing they do is infuriate the other side and then proceed to cut off any semblence to sensible discussion/debate.

Mmm- to the spelling comment. I don't agree with that. I'm a stickler for spelling/grammar in all cases, and if someone has horrible spelling, etc, I find it very hard to conjure up any respect for that person. And I will mention it in passing, more of a "you might want to work on your spelling and so on, so that I can at least find it within myself to look at you as an intelligent person capable of mature conversation." I realize that people who speak in netspeak may be very mature, but the impression they gives is distinctly the opposite.

As for insults- I love 'em, but I try to abstain. Being an extreme leftist, any insult I use will be scorned, abused, twisted, and used against me in thirty different ways by at least five people. I'm sorry, but it's true, from my experience here. I have no wish to lower my impression on people even more, given that I just barely hold a tenuous position as {I think} one of the more level headed liberals, if nothing else. Please excuse me if I'm wrong- but no one has screamed at me yet, or told me I had no idea what I'm talking about, so I think I'm fairly safe in making that assumption. Considering having no one screaming at me and being a liberal is a rare feat here. For various reasons, of course.

Again- nice guide, very helpful to everyone.

Cheers, Pads.

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As an independent i like to try to be as fair as i can. I do think, though this is something everyone here at JU could work on - i know i certainly could.

Great thread

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Eh, that's two posts in a row I've almost totally agreed with today. I'm doing well. Considering they were both by conservatives...and conservatives and I don't really mix well a lot of the time.

, I hope you're not under the impression that I'm a conservative

While not a radical liberal I'm most certainly NOT conservative. And like you said, while it's obvious why I targeted it at who I did, it does apply equally to just about everyone here that gets a little hot under the collar from time to time.

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Venturing off topic with whip- yes I returned..

I wasn't aware that I even had a blog. All I've ever used here is just the forums, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean by blog. The reasons thread that I posted is a couple pages down on the forums- it hasn't been deleted at all- just not replied to for a while. And I did read your post- I'm trying to find the time to respond properly to it.

I didn't know I had a personal blog site, or that I had anything on it, or any of that. Like I said before- I'm new, and don't really know what I'm doing in terms of the site. I'm jsut pleased I figured out that only some of this runs on BBC and the rest is all HTML {in reference to post formatting, etc}. So please don't think I have deleted my post- I put a lot of effort into all my posts/threads, and I'd hate to see THAT deleted.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Zoomba- I thought I'd seen somewhere that you were conservative, my apologies. Augh I'm messing everything up, aren't I?

Cheers, Pads

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Zoomba- I thought I'd seen somewhere that you were conservative, my apologies. Augh I'm messing everything up, aren't I?

The state of confusion really isn't such a bad place once you get used to it.

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#21 by DiseasedHumanity
Tuesday, June 14, 2005

Welcome to the land of the lost and confused. If you think your lost now, just wait till I get done with you. You'll be "throughly" confused!

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Zoomba- I thought I'd seen somewhere that you were conservative, my apologies. Augh I'm messing everything up, aren't I?

Cheers, Pads

Welcome to Joe User! Sit a spell and stay awhile!

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LoL...well now you know!

Again, welcome to Ju...sit back, stay a while, take yer shoes off...

Copy Cat!

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nuh-uh, I said it first!

~neener~

Yea, but I said it first here! neener!

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