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Phoenixboi

Join Date 05/2004

Is the bible wrong?

or do you just want to take what you think from it and that's it?

I have to personally thank Champas for finding this for me. I think it is great! In a previous article I was trying to point out how alot of Christians.. (not alot NOT all Christians) seem to want to judge and condemn quickly.

What I find hypocritical is that they can take verses out of the bible when it suits them and disregard other verses as "non applicable" to this day and age. And then they turn around and say that the law is the law and God gave it to us so we have to follow it or we will be doomed to eternal damnation in hell.

So I have to thank again Champas for the following.. it just points out so much of what I am trying to say. You wanna follow the bible to the letter.. then read the following.. or doesnt it apply anymore?

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to
people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that
homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned
under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by
a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge
with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it
to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you,
however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours.
They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and Female,
provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.
I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have
a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.
How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of
two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't
we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with
people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you
can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

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I had similar thoughts the other day (in response to one of Aeryck's posts)

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That post was fabulous. I hope you don't mind if I disseminate it , (via link to your site.) Bravo! You are not alone.

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but see.....those are all references to the Old Testament.....the "old covenant". When Jesus came, shed his blood, and died, rose again and ascended to heaven, he made the New Testament...the "new covenant".....

I understand what you are saying. And I agree, there are many ppl that "pick and choose" what to accept from Scripture and what not to accept. But, are you not doing the same thing? In one hand, you say and acknowledge that the bible does say homosexuality is a sin....but then, turn around and say that doesn't matter, God has changed his mind on that.

I challenge you to find in the NT where the Bible says to do as you will, heaven is there for your taking, no matter what you do. It just simply isn't there, no matter how much you try to bring up the OT. Your arguments are weak when I ask you about the NT....I am not talking about the OT.

Once more, with feeling....the OT is a shadow of the NT, and the NT is the fulfillment of the Old....You can't have one without the other....if you read the bible, you would know that the OT law was given so that we would know what sin is.

You have a "cute" argurment here, but it does not stand up to New Testament discussions speaking on the same things. Besides, as another blogger elsewhere has already said, unless you are willing to take the Bible as a whole as the inspired Word of God, these discussions are useless. You are only trying to force Christians to accept what you do and condone it. If you would actually READ what the bible says about sin, you would see that what you are talking about is wrong.

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If you would actually READ what the bible says about sin, you would see that what you are talking about is wrong.

MythicalMino, darling - the whole point is that a lot of us see the bible as a tonne of phooey. We are not going to take it into our hearts. We are also not going to deny your right to believe in it. This is a comedic work, not an argument against the bible. Chill out for a couple of seconds and maybe you'll see the humour.

Phoenixboi!
a) long time, no see. I've been in hiding. Hope all is well with you!

Is the bible wrong? As with guns - bibles don't kill people, people do! I say we liberate the bible from all the responsibility it has to shoulder. This poor little tome is blamed for so much hatred, yet I'm sure it didn't want to take on the huge task that's asked of it. Free the literature and take on the supporters! it has been held captive for too long.

Suz xxx

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Dr. Laura is Jewish, Mino, so the Old Testament would be all the scripture she would use. Citing Levitical law in this case is correct, because Dr. Laura wouldn't accept that Jesus was the Jewish messiah.

As for Jesus wiping the slate clean of Old Testament laws, you might want to read this verse to see how Jesus felt about the Levitical laws and prophets:

Matt 5:17-18 a little bit closer: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

As you can see, Christ did NOT mean to change any laws -- it was Paul who went about saying that the Jewish law wasn't all that important. Christ says otherwise.

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If that's the case though, then why even argue about it? It'd be like people debating details about spirits and reincarnation and what not and then somebody just going, "Oh, I don't believe in reincarnation or spirits!" It's like, why does that person even bother participating in a debate about something he thinks isn't true?
Besides, I think that PB wasn't trying to be comedic, but serious.

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I get the "joke"....but why would a jewish person's questioning be used to show "proof" of a Christian's hypocracy? The last I knew, the Christian religion was not the same as the Jewish religion.

and as far as Jesus not changing any laws, but rather, that being a Paul thing....according to the bible (that you don't believe), Jesus commissioned Paul to preach what he preached.

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Well, I'll not debate it with you. But your assertion that Old Testament law was changed by the coming of Christ isn't supported by the alleged words of the Man himself.

according to the bible (that you don't believe),

I don't believe in Santa, either, but I can still quote "Twas the Night Before Christmas."

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I hope you don't mind if I disseminate it

Not at all Mac..

I had similar thoughts the other day

Good one greywar..

But you see you guys want to have your cake and eat it as well.. you say that the old testament isnt relavent anymore because Jesus came to fullfill the old law.. but then as many Christians come along and all they can quote is Leviticus.. Well there are other laws and they arent being followed. Does it mean that the ten commandments arent important anymore, because in the new testament they arent mentioned??

You see I dont get it when you have to argue this way that Jesus came to fullfill the law and then you say that what is written in the Old testament doesnt matter anymore. Then stop quoting it.

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You are only trying to force Christians to accept what you do and condone it. If you would actually READ what the bible says about sin, you would see that what you are talking about is wrong.

But arent you trying to force me to condone what your doing and accept it as right? You say in one post that that Jesus is the only way and if you dont follow Jesus then your going to Hell... well im sorry but that doesnt wash. What about the pygmie in Africa who has never heard about Jesus will he go to hell as well? Even though he lives his life as a pure human being? See it doesnt wash!

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Phoenixboi!a) long time, no see. I've been in hiding. Hope all is well with you!

Hey Suz! I been wondering where you been?! Good to see you back!
Honey .. your an aussie.. see these things seem to make sense to us because it hasnt been drummed into us like in some parts of the world. Sometimes I think to myself poor Jesus .. what a burden he has to carry with all the responsibility these people are placing on him.

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Matt 5:17-18 a little bit closer: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."As you can see, Christ did NOT mean to change any laws -- it was Paul who went about saying that the Jewish law wasn't all that important. Christ says otherwise.

Good one Myrr.. you see this has been used as an argument elsewhere when I have brought up the fact about leviticus not being relevant and they say that it is..and now they say that it isnt.. doesnt make sense to me.. it is like they swap and change and pull out quotes when it suits them then when other stuff is brought up ..well all of a sudden it isnt relevant anymore.

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Do you think the Bible's lying when it says Jesus is the only way?

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Yes, some Christians do do that. I don't, and from what I've read, neither do the ones responding here with me. We quote from the New Testament about homosexuality.

Rom. 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

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Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light"..."noone comes to the father but by me"..

The trouble is that people take what is written in the bible too literally.. even at face value. What they need to do is to understand the esoteric and spiritual significance by which the words were said.

I AM the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Jesus was Christed. He became the Suprahuman, that which other traditions such as hinduism and buddhism call the Enlightenment. Jesus shows us by his life and his example on how to live our lives. He told us that we are gods and that we will do even greater things than what he did. He told us that the kingdom of heaven is within. These are his words .. well the words that were written many years after his life handed down by people who probably didnt even know him.. yet they attribute these words coming from him...anyhow..

At the point where Jesus made the statement.."noone comes to the father but by me".. he was enlightened.. he knew his true full human potential.. he realised that he was God.. just like we are. He had fullfilled his potential, he had become the Christ. Just like we are supposed to be doing.

It isnt the bible that is lying. It is the interpretation..read again.. the interpretation that people are placing on the words in the bible without understanding 1. the times at which they were written and what the political and social implications were in the middle east at that time was. Hello .. it was a different era... a different time.. and things were seen differently to what we have here on earth now. People were ruled by kings and caesers. The content has been taken out of context.

No where in this whole debate have I seen people acknowledge that or the other quotes which were given in the original. Do you still sacrifice? Do you work on the sabbath? Do you wear clothes made from two different thereads? Do you eat shellfish? Are you short in stature? Do you wear glasses? People seem to dismiss all of this because they recognise that it isnt relavent to the way that we live now. But they cannot acknowledge that.. they dismiss it by saying Jesus fullfilled the prophecy. But will we fullfill the prophecy that Jesus made? That "we are also gods and we will do even greater things than he did?"

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1Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Were these the words of Jesus himself?? Where did Jesus say .. and Im talking the words of Jesus .. not of anyone else...where did Jesus himself say that homosexuality is a sin? Not Paul or Peter or Mark or anyone else... Where did it come out of his mouth Jesus himself that homosexuality is a Sin? Until you can show me that he himself said it.. then it doesnt mean anything to me. Because havent you all been saying that "Noone comes to the Father but by me?" he didnt say .. by Paul or Peter Or Mark Or John Paul or anyone else..
see the argument here that I am trying to make?

ANd then you ask me if I think the bible is lying and say Jesus is the only way.. it didnt say Paul or Peter is the way too did it.

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Oh here we go again...'the NT cancels out Leviticus' argument.

I'm happy doing what I'm doing, P's happy doing what he's doing, and you Christians are happy doing what you're doing. Where's the problem? (that was a rhetorical question, I know that the BAC's among us will say that P and I are going to hell because we either don't believe in their god or we're doing things that are sinful...my point is simply that if people left each other alone and minded their own spiritual beeswax everyone might be better off)

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Oh here we go again...'the NT cancels out Leviticus' argument.

They want their cake and to eat it as well D.. what they dont see is the bogger picture. The real spiritual truths. They still want to be sheep and hand over their spiritual responsibilities over to someone who told them that they need to do it themselves and showed them how to do it.

my point is simply that if people left each other alone and minded their own spiritual beeswax everyone might be better off)

Exaclty.
Not only better off but there actually might be some peace and harmony on the planet right now, without all the self righteousness.

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The trouble is that people take what is written in the bible too literally.. even at face value. What they need to do is to understand the esoteric and spiritual significance by which the words were said.

So, your figurative interpretation is the one that's right, and everybody else's is wrong, because we don't read into it what we want to read?

No where in this whole debate have I seen people acknowledge that or the other quotes which were given in the original. Do you still sacrifice? Do you work on the sabbath? Do you wear clothes made from two different thereads? Do you eat shellfish? Are you short in stature? Do you wear glasses? People seem to dismiss all of this because they recognise that it isnt relavent to the way that we live now.

That's because he fulfilled the law. We've said that a few times already. And I also quoted from the NT where it says homosexuality is still a sin.

But will we fullfill the prophecy that Jesus made? That "we are also gods and we will do even greater things than he did?"

Where does Jesus say that?

Well, it's in the Bible, and the Bible is supposedly inspired scripture from the Lord, so I don't see why you'd disregard it just because it isn't in red text. Oh, I know why. People don't like thinking of themselves as sinners. Fine, believe that the Bible is inspired scripture and at the same time that it wasn't.

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Except when jesus came the covenant was fulfilled and thus not everything applies in the old testament anymore

As well render unto caeser what is caesers... still gotta follow the local rules...

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Oh here we go again...'the NT cancels out Leviticus' argument.

If you don't agree, then fine. Just respect our beliefs as we've respected yours. Christians too deserve the right to have their beliefs respected.

I'm happy doing what I'm doing, P's happy doing what he's doing, and you Christians are happy doing what you're doing. Where's the problem? (that was a rhetorical question, I know that the BAC's among us will say that P and I are going to hell because we either don't believe in their god or we're doing things that are sinful...my point is simply that if people left each other alone and minded their own spiritual beeswax everyone might be better off)

He started the thread about how some Christians are cruel to him and tell him he's going to hell because he's a homosexual, and then we say that although homosexuality is a sin, we are all sinful and what not, and then he starts not minding his own business about his beliefs. If he wants Christians to mind their own business, then he should mind his own. If he has a problem with bigots, then he should deal with those bigots.

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Where does Jesus say that?

Book of John Chapter 10 and John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Well, it's in the Bible, and the Bible is supposedly inspired scripture from the Lord

Has the bible been kept word for word exactly as it was first written? Hasnt it been chopped and changed over the centuries in order to fit in with the rule of the day?

People don't like thinking of themselves as sinners. Fine, believe that the Bible is inspired scripture and at the same time that it wasn't.

I think that it is time for people to stop thinking themselves as sinners and thinking themselves as sons of God who are here to fullfill their destinies as children of God. Start to grab onto the positives of your life and everything will be given to you. Keep thinking you are the dirt and that is all you will be worth. Follow your hearts and do what is right for you. Be an example just like Jesus was, dont judge or condemn or throw the stones, because that is how you will be seen.

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If you don't agree, then fine. Just respect our beliefs as we've respected yours. Christians too deserve the right to have their beliefs respected.

Where did I say that they didn't? Where did I disrespect anyone's beliefs? Because I made the comment about the NT and Leviticus cancelling each other out? That's not disrespectful. Disrespectful would be my saying that christians are all morons and that the bible is full of shit. I never said that, and I wouldn't say that. My beliefs are a lot closer to christianity than a lot of people realize...

If he wants Christians to mind their own business, then he should mind his own

If the Christians in question had minded their own business, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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If you don't agree, then fine. Just respect our beliefs as we've respected yours. Christians too deserve the right to have their beliefs respected.

Im asking Christians to tell me where Jesus himself said that homosexuality is a sin. Where anywhere has Jesus himself condemned people who are gay?

Still no one can answer this question.

If he wants Christians to mind their own business, then he should mind his own.

Are christians ever gonna mind their own business???

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D..you know you have an ability to bring sense.. As soon as people question the bible or christian beliefs then its hell to pay..they get into a flutter and start not making sense and go on about how we are being disrespectful.

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