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MSStyles=clones, clones and more clones?

BlueDev

Join Date 12/2003

+16

MSStyles=clones, clones and more clones?

-or- where is the originality?

This is a geek rant. Yes, by writing this I am totally revealing to the world that not only do I care about the subject, but that I think enough about the topic to decide to write a rant about it. So, yes, this is a geek rant, by a geek, and will probably only be relevant to other geeks. Geeks freaking rule.

It isn't any surprise that I enjoy customizing my computer. I love downloading and trying to goodies, widgets, icons, cursors and most of all visual styles. And lately I have enjoyed working on my own a bit. My fascination with OS customization really started when I stumbled across Windowblinds (back when it was early version 3.something, so I am still pretty new to the whole scene). Being able to change how my OS looks is very appealing to me, and to be honest I can't imagine just using plain old Windows or even being limited to one of the Luna themes XP came with. They just bore me.

But at the same time I don't like to limit myself to just using Windowblinds skins. As I mentioned previously I like to use Skin Studio to convert themes that are in MSStyle format to use with Windowblinds. I am not a fan of using a hacked uxtheme.dll myself, so I opt to convert. Then I can add even more goodies to my visual styles. But my use of visual styles is becoming less and less frequent.

I like to stop by Neowin on a semi-regular basis. I peruse their Completed Visual Styles section to see what is coming out. But it seems that lately all that is coming out is the same old thing. Sure, they change a color here and there, perhaps change the buttons from a box to a circle, maybe just make them lines. But they are clones and clones and clones. Someone comes up with a great idea (like Stefanka's Inspirat visual style) and you get 30 other monkeys who change a color here, make it lighter/darker, and then release it and let the MSStyle lovers over at Neowin heap the praise on them.

Guess what robots. I can do all that with the same skin in Windowblinds. And I can do even more without much effort with Skin Studio.

And when an original Windowblinds visual style comes around there the robots all jump on it with brilliant comments such as "fugly". I think the collective IQ of the whole bunch is probably lower than the measly points this article will earn. They deride the visual style for being too bulky, too busy, to big. If it isn't completely minimalistic, and limited to about 3 colors they rip it to shreds. To illustrate my point let me offer mormegil's elegant, colorful, festive Christmas Time skin. When the news regarding this Christmas suite was posted over at Neowin it instantly met with comment after comment about how it was fugly, bloated, hideous, and so on. One person even had the audacity to say that "Somebody needs to take a couple design courses!" Yet, just look at the page over at Wincustomize. It has well over 250,000 downloads. Over 250,000! And it has an average rating of 5/5 stars. But because it isn't another minimalistic Luna clone it gets shredded. The myopia displayed on that thread alone made me see red.

I love minimalistic styles myself. But not every stinking day. I like some changes, some creativity, some unique looks to my skin. I have seen visual styles that I honestly couldn't have told you what the difference was between them without doing a close, side by side comparison. Yet each one gets praise heaped upon it for being so slick, so sleek, so smooth.

I just want to see some originality. I know there are great artists making some stylish and even stunning visual styles out there. But the second you see one of their works released, be prepared to see 50 clones of the same thing. Me, I am just getting tired of seeing the same visual style, time after time. Perhaps it is the community, perhaps it is the inherent power of Windowblinds over the MSStyle format, but I just don't seem to see nearly the same degree of cloning going on with the Windowblinds skins. So thanks to all of you out there trying to break new ground, to make something a little different that will look great on my screen.

The robots? Let them stew in their own pot of mundane similarity.

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I will not pay for a product which charges for services that are freely provided by artists.

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If WB was a one time purchase like any other product, I might be ok with it, but they charge annually for services which are rendered freely by the artists.

Umm...what?!

What you buy, you keep forever. Once the end of the year is up, you just stop getting updates to it. Theres no nagware or anything in there. That means, that if I bought WB now, I'd have the version at the end of the year for as long as I wanted it. Even if I reformat, stardock will still supply me with the latest version I was allowed to have. THAT'S customer service, right there. Thats not like other products where if you lose them, you're screwed. I think that they've got a great customer service setup.

Remember, not ALL the content is free either. You always have to pay for the best stuff. WindowBlinds is better than ANY uxtheme hack, its legal (the hack is not) the quality of work is more diverse, as are the styles. Why you would allow yourself to use substandard software, as well as substandard themes, just because you are too cheap to do it the better way? It's just sad.

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I will not pay for a product which charges for services that are freely provided by artists.

Then you obviously have no idea just how much more powerful Windowblinds is versus the uxtheme.dll hack. Good to know there is no shortage of ignoramuses out there.

Now, this is a perfect example. I just don't understand this mentality. The artists aren't providing you the program to skin your computer. Their work is sometimes amazing, but they didn't hack the system files. The fantastic Windowblinds artists aren't asking you to pay for anything. Heck, Stardock isn't asking you to pay for anything. I used the free version of Windowblinds for a long time in favor of the uxtheme hack simply because even the free version was more powerful and worked better than the uxtheme hack.

Of course that is a personal opinion, but refusing to pay for quality software is idiocy. End. Of. Story.

The above post was edited to clarify what was an incomplete thought. I never meant to say the artists aren't "providing you crap". I meant to say the artists are providing the means to skin, rather they are providing the skin itself. I totally respect the artists and all they do, but I meant to point out that none of the artists, for MSStyles or for WB are asking you to pay for thier services (with the exception of some premium suites), so talking about the artists as being the reason to no purchase the software is just plain stupid.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1048

Of course that is a personal opinion, but refusing to pay for quality software is idiocy. End. Of. Story.

That should be the quote of the day.

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I have no idea huh? The irony of your ignorant accusation is that it comes right after an ignorant assumption.

The artists are providing you with the REASON you are using WB to begin with so dont give me that 'crap' comment. I'm pretty sure you've just insulted them all anyway.

If WB was a one time purchase like any other product, I might be ok with it, but they charge annually for services which are rendered freely by the artists.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

no... WB charges for a program to easily and effectivle apply the graphics supplied to you by the artists ... WB is a program .. not a hack and not a theme ...the artists make the skins for various programs "includeing WB" and share them with us ...but the WB program was made by stardock..... go to your local pc store and gripe to them abt wanting a pc for free because your buddy gave you a windows disk, and the pc should be supplyed by MS .. you will get laughed out of the store ....

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I will not pay for a product which charges for services that are freely provided by artists.

Then don't use it. Be happy with msstyles. Just dont'y pretend they're nearly as powerful as WindowBlinds skins.

I agree with you though. I won't pay for a product which charges for services that are freely provided by artists. That's why I won't buy Half-Life 2, 'cause many of the mods made for it are free. Same with Everquest, 'cause many of the interface mods are free.

If WB was a one time purchase like any other product, I might be ok with it, but they charge annually for services which are rendered freely by the artists.

It does cost money for updates, but most high quality software does charge for updates.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

If WB was a one time purchase like any other product, I might be ok with it, but they charge annually for services which are rendered freely by the artists.

most programs charge for a subscription.. that subscription gives you a years worth of updates...when the years over .. you get to keep the progs and the updates til that point ... if you want further updates ... ya have to resubscribe....antivirus and other progs have been doing this for years .. its not a new concept....

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

stardock is no different than nullsoft they both provide a program, both have default skins made inhouse, both have free skins that are supplied by generous/talented artists..both have a free version...both charge for the enhanced versions of their products...

get it ?

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This is all about how greedy people have gotten. They think that just becausse they have XP, that they should be entitled to free VS.

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Why not just use or not use what the hell you like, simple as that. Let whoever rant and rave about what they want, to pay or not to pay, whatever, MsStyles are alot of the same old same old, I like some, and I don't like alot because of that. But the same with Windowblinds, some appeal to me and alot don't, but visually if the aren't really appealing to me, I can see and do appreciate the talent that did go into them, a lot of the skinners are extremely talented, a few are just learning and want comments, some just think they know more than they do and go ahead and upload it, but damn, If you like it, try it and use it, if not, move on, there's always something new coming out that you will like, and screw anyone that can't appreciate the love and talent that it takes to do whatever style, or even not much talent but a desire to try and to try to get better

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Supafly, thanks for pointing out what was, in the post you mentioned, an incomplete thought regarding the artists. I have since edited that response, as well as adding my reasoning behind it. Still, you haven't made any points. You are just blowing the same old, whiney "I don't want to pay for anything" smoke that we have all heard before. Thanks and don't come back.

Others have clearly made the point regarding the idiocy of your final comment:

If WB was a one time purchase like any other product, I might be ok with it, but they charge annually for services which are rendered freely by the artists.

So I will leave it alone.

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And just to clarify, I have edited the original article to only allow registered users to reply. To be frank, if you don't have the balls to register I see no reason to invite you to my blog.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

I tend to take on the view that people should just pick what they want. Most people aren't willing to patch their system files but let's put that aside, if there's mstyles that fit the bill for someone, that's fine.

WindowBlinds, being a superset of msstyles, can do any mstyles out there. But what I don't like are the people who try to act like they're getting more out of uxtheme which is just not realistic (since like I said, WB can do all that).

but on something like a holiday theme, yea, I want it to be loud and bright and yea gaudy. My house is bright and gaudy right now too. And I don't consider takinga luna, colorizing the title bar red and having green title bar buttons to cut the mustard.

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The more I have thought about my comment that someone didn't really understand the power of WB over the uxtheme hack, the more truth I think there is to it. It doesn't matter if you like or don't like WB, it doesn't matter if you like/don't like Stardock. I just can't see how someone with any common sense and honesty can't see that WB is a program worth paying for. That is, if they really understand just how powerful it can do.

But, again, use what you like. I don't care about that. But respect what is out there. There are great MSStyle artists, and then there are a lot of copy cats. Just like there are for WB as well, thought I just don't see quite as much copy cat work there.

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If you like it, try it and use it, if not, move on, there's always something new coming out that you will like, and screw anyone that can't appreciate the love and talent that it takes to do whatever style, or even not much talent but a desire to try and to try to get better

My sentiments exactly.

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Snowman

Join Date 03/2001

+343

Might as well throw in my opinion too on this matter, although it doesnt differ much from what has already been said.....

Bashing other peoples skins/themes because you dont like the work is one thing (if done in a valid and constructive way that is), but bashing it just because its made for a different application than the one you're useing is utter childish.

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I made the switch completely to Windowblinds about nine months ago for the reasons you've mentioned. However I do find the vast majority of Windowblinds skins to be unuseable monstrosities. I quite liked the Christmas theme, I could certainly appreciate the skill and effort that had gone into it, but it's a novelty skin and should be rated as such - it's not a classic that you'd keep on your PC for months on end. The Neowin crowd do suffer from band-wagon jumping 'l33t'ness, but to deride the work produced by the talented skinners there as "robots" is very harsh.

The simple fact is that if you actually use your PC on a regular basis (ie, not just for a couple of hours in the evening in-between games of Counterstrike), you need a workable, useable and elegant skin that you can bear to look at for more than ten minutes without frothing at the mouth. Skins like ReLuna and LunaVX are styles I could cheerfully live with forever. I also really liked the WB-only skins like Luna-HoE and Kewk-HoE - even Pixtudio's Luna-inspired Soft Crystal. For me those skins give me a welcome relief from vanilla Luna, but still enable me to use my PC.

Ultimately it boils down to the fact that there are two distinct types of skin user - those who enjoy customisation for its own sake and who revel in the extremes possible - and those who do it to improve their desktop. I sit squarely in the latter category and the skins I like reflect that.

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but to deride the work produced by the talented skinners there as "robots" is very harsh.

The "Robot" comment was not for the artists, rather for the "critics" who dismiss anything that isn't a recolored version of the latest, greatest minimalistic skin. I respect the artists, particularly those willing to try something new.

I agree, the Christmas skin is a novelty skin. I can only use it for a little bit of time each year. And since I am working at my computer all day long, I agree with the need for attractive, useable skins. But you can make those without simply recoloring some Luna derivative and letting the robots heap praise upon you.

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TasT's Thoughts:

The Christmas Theme
Yea it's bright and gaudy, but that's what it was designed to be. Mormegil's skills are awesome and he created a theme that was all that and useable also. That's what kills me, I don't really like the christmas theme or any of his other themes for WB. ( sorry Mormegil) However I can appreciate the talent and the work put into them even if I don't choose to use them. That's the difference between the WinC community and the others. Most of the people that frequent WinC don't bash anyone if a bad theme is released they either keep thier typer shut or give constructive comments. ( I'm one of the horrible ones that will sometimes rate a skin and not comment, but I'm equal oppritunity I'll do it to a good or bad skin).

WindowBlinds
Stardock basically gives the software away see my article on WB for a comparison of WindowBlinds FREE to WindowBlinds $20 here Link The only complaint you could have with the free version is that it has a popup window for a couple of seconds at start up. My son has used the free version for so long with Essorants Seer skin that I don't know if he know's what standard windows looks like anymore. I'm one of the suckers that has paid for WindowBlinds (Object Desktop) since 1999 and will probably continue to do so. WindowBlinds let's me skin my computer with a feeling of security. I get my skins from WinC or make them myself so I feel safe and with 3000+ skins there are a few I like.

The Community
It has changed and at first I didn't like it. "Back in the Day" there was a handfull of us working to change your desktop and almost everyone that used skinning programs skinned them and we all knew each other. It was good. Today that is all fragmented, people have moved to various other websites or are not active at all anymore, but in time I realized that it was OK. I have made many new friends on the various stardock sites and LOS and some of these relationships are better than the old ones. I think the old community that was so close has become the WinC community for the most part. That is good.

The Drones
Umm Well, Oh Sh#t just screw'em they will grow up in time and realize that some of their actions are stupid. My self I never "Bash" a skin, I might leave a low rating and some constructive comments, but I won't bash. It's just not Nice.......

Paying for software
Stardock get's a little money from me each year. I'm good with that I enjoy the products and service and can afford it. Each year when I send my renewal I get an email back from stardock that has my serial numbers in it. They still send me the serial and download link for Windowblinds Version 1.x. The first product that I bought from them. So I would say that they go above and beyond what most companies will do.

Stardock's Stuff is really FREE
IF you go and look at the charts over on stardock.com for the difference between the FREE and Pay Versions of the software you will notice that all of the software will do most all it's functions in the free version. I sometimes wonder why I subscribe to ODNT if they give it all away...........

Anyhow that's my random thoghts for now, Use the UXtheme.dll hack if you like, but don't bash the authors there or the authors of WB skins neither is easy to make and remember most of the artist/engineers did it for free for you to use. There will always be hardcore fanboys and girls for something just ignore them..........

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TasT: Excellent thoughts. I really appreciate the addition to the discussion.

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The reason for the lack of originality in skinning now is ego. Yes, it's always present when some form of artistic creativity is involved, but there's very few skinners out there who can even comprehend the concept of not HAVING to upload every skin. The majority are all about making whatever's popular to reap the attention and comments.
Can't even begin to count the number of "I added 'whatever' to this for 'so and so'" comments when a skin is uploaded/updated.
The more forum-driven mentalities out there are the worst, msstyles and Shapeshifter being the worst.(Although it does happen with WB too) It's all about the betas and the alphas and the previews and the "here's a tiny pic of something I'm working on, comment on it and tell me how awesome I am and thus giving me validation yadda yadda".

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I don't understand all the negativity. I don't go to websites for software I don't like and post about how bad it is. I have tried some skins I don't like, but I didn't post about what an awful skin it is.

Also, I don't understand people who say, "But CompanyX does it this way" as though CompanyX is the be-all and end-all of all knowledge.

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It all depends whether you're skinning for yourself or skinning for others - or both. I don't think one of the two is necessarily better than the other, and I respectfully but strongly disagree with the view that "skinning by yourself, for yourself" is the highest form of artwork. Art by itself may be nice, but most skins are designed to actually be used - if people can't or won't use your skin because they don't like how it works, or would like it better if it included something else, then I think you should consider changing it. I don't think there's anything wrong in wanting other people to want to use your skin, and if that means putting features in that they want then that's what you do, as long as it doesn't spoil the skin. The trick is to do that and remain original/true to the theme, but it's usually possible with a little effort.

Personally I think betas are a good idea, but maybe not on a public forum. I beta'd my snowflakes object on Stardock's IRC channel and they were much the better for it. If I'd released it and then had to update it, people would have had to get it again and I would have had to do the update thing, which I know annoys some people who think you're trying to get more downloads by staying at the head of the queue.

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The majority are all about making whatever's popular to reap the attention and comments.
Can't even begin to count the number of "I added 'whatever' to this for 'so and so'" comments when a skin is uploaded/updated.

I guess that's why I never could work with that crowd. Once I make a skin it's done unless someone has a request that I like or I decide to update the skin for myself or a problem is found.

Or, Maybe I'm Just and A$$?

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