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FE 0.80: AI Test Game

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Frogboy
Horemheb
Join Date 03/2006
+4
Reply #51 February 14, 2012 9:45:53 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

The problem is bigger than the above mentioned "perfectly similar units in 1-1 fight" tied-position. In standard fighting situations you don't want to move into striking range of your enemy, as then he gets the first strike and gets an advantage. At least in the public betas this has given a massive advantage to the human player. Really, the neatest solution is such that as often as possible, one player benefits more by standing back, because they have better ranged attack/spells. Give units ranged attacks, even if they are weak ones.

Another approach: make the initiative system slightly random ("+/-2 initiative each time it is checked"). This ensures that even if the initiatives of the units are the same, eventually one will get two moves in a row. This will be the time to strike.

If multiplayer will ever be in, this will be a real problem. If you get two stubborn players fighting each other, you will get a looong battle...

BTW about chess: I think it is real AI. Of course, the definition of AI is often such that anything a computer can do isn't AI. It is just statistics or brute forcing. Because that is what computers do...

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Frogboy
Silicor
Join Date 03/2006
+3
Reply #52 February 14, 2012 2:00:54 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


The best way to prevent stalemates is to have objectives that either give victory points or significant advantages.  This also increases the tactical challenge. 

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Frogboy
Barrynor
Join Date 01/2007
+6
Reply #53 February 14, 2012 2:34:33 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Horemheb,
reply 51
The problem is bigger than the above mentioned "perfectly similar units in 1-1 fight" tied-position. In standard fighting situations you don't want to move into striking range of your enemy, as then he gets the first strike and gets an advantage. At least in the public betas this has given a massive advantage to the human player. Really, the neatest solution is such that as often as possible, one player benefits more by standing back, because they have better ranged attack/spells. Give units ranged attacks, even if they are weak ones.

Another approach: make the initiative system slightly random ("+/-2 initiative each time it is checked"). This ensures that even if the initiatives of the units are the same, eventually one will get two moves in a row. This will be the time to strike.

If multiplayer will ever be in, this will be a real problem. If you get two stubborn players fighting each other, you will get a looong battle...

BTW about chess: I think it is real AI. Of course, the definition of AI is often such that anything a computer can do isn't AI. It is just statistics or brute forcing. Because that is what computers do...

 

I smell derailment... all my fault

 

Just to mess with your mind: Computers are , in essence, clockwork mechanisms. I've had philosphy in university ( I majored in molecular plant physics and animal-research-ethics), and it is an utterly unbreakable position that in strict terms there is no way to tell whether you as a person are a clockwork mechanism or posess free will, from the outside. Free will is taken for granted, but there is no way to prove it.

 

 

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Frogboy
Tasunke
Join Date 10/2009
+45
Reply #54 February 14, 2012 5:05:41 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

http://livingrainbow.narod.ru/English/stories/philosophy.html

enjoy

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Frogboy
Bellack
Join Date 02/2007
+18
Reply #55 February 15, 2012 7:53:03 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Horemheb,
reply 51
The problem is bigger than the above mentioned "perfectly similar units in 1-1 fight" tied-position. In standard fighting situations you don't want to move into striking range of your enemy, as then he gets the first strike and gets an advantage. At least in the public betas this has given a massive advantage to the human player. Really, the neatest solution is such that as often as possible, one player benefits more by standing back, because they have better ranged attack/spells. Give units ranged attacks, even if they are weak ones.

Another approach: make the initiative system slightly random ("+/-2 initiative each time it is checked"). This ensures that even if the initiatives of the units are the same, eventually one will get two moves in a row. This will be the time to strike.

If multiplayer will ever be in, this will be a real problem. If you get two stubborn players fighting each other, you will get a looong battle...

BTW about chess: I think it is real AI. Of course, the definition of AI is often such that anything a computer can do isn't AI. It is just statistics or brute forcing. Because that is what computers do...

The solution is simple, unless a unit has First Strike then both units exchange blows then at the end of the exchange the damage is tallied. This is really the only way to give the AI a fighting chance

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Frogboy
Horemheb
Join Date 03/2006
+4
Reply #56 February 15, 2012 8:10:59 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Yes, counter-attack would work. However I like the current system. It really makes the tactical battles interesting.

From the bottomless pit of bad ideas: How about the attacker slowly loses initiative if nothing is happening in the battle? The idea is that if you attack, then you must do something or face losing by the defender gaining the initiative. This way in the tied position the attacker must move (which makes sense in my opinion). If he doesn't, in a couple of turns he will lose so much initiative that the defender will gain the advantage.

I don't know how to prevent the defender running around until the attacker is slowed down by the above...

I really hope we could get the next beta so that we could see how the current system really works.

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Frogboy
Tasunke
Join Date 10/2009
+45
Reply #57 February 15, 2012 9:44:16 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I personally do not think the AI would ever reach a point of infinite loop draws. I mean, it might be nice I guess ... for an AI to be that good, but either way ... what we need is just a Draw timer.

aka-> like in SC2 where there has been no damage or resource acquisitions for some time, the timer starts to draw down and then its a draw (both lose and retreat)

I feel similar in this way. Say, after 5-8 turns of nothing happening, the timer will begin. 10 turns till draw. ... 9 turns till draw ...

and if an attack is made within that timer, the timer stops and the battle may continue.

(of course this gives somewhat of an advantage for ranged units, but nothing game-breaking. If you are attacking without ranged units, you will at least want mounted units to counter)

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Frogboy
Edwin99
Join Date 07/2006
+22
Reply #58 February 15, 2012 12:46:01 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I would like to see an option for units to exit the battle field after X turns, if they move to a specific exit tile behind their lines on the map.

One unit can exit the battle per turn. Each combat unit that exits the battle field reduces the initiative of remaining (non champion/non sovereign)units by 1.

This gives the defender a chance to extract some of his units from a battle without an escape spell.

It also opens up options for new spells such as Panic - enemy unit that does not resist moves to exit the battlefield. Once the unit exits the battlefield, the initiative of remaining combat units is reduced by one.

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Frogboy
NaytchSG
Join Date 03/2006
+19
Reply #59 February 17, 2012 12:08:18 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

That is a great idea and it could also dovetail nicely with some monsters having a fear ability. 

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