@Karl

I took the meaning of what he said differently than you did.  I believe he means that if you're going to point out his mistakes and their possible relation to how poorly the game is going when he starts complaining about everything that is going wrong, then he'd prefer you not accept his invites in the future.

@Pacov

I'm surprised to hear that you're still slightly upset over what happened with the Ranked team I put together.  First of all, I remember watching your stream when your ADC had taken on a very familiar attitude where he decided that since he had struggle early game, he was going to AFK farm while the rest of your team helplessly watched objective after objective fall.  Was hoping that a bit of self awareness hit you at that moment and you thought "Oh... this is really frustrating.  No wonder my friends were worried about having me on their team back when I used to do this."

Also, I remember you had an opportunity to put Karl on your team at one point when your support left.  Karl is a fantastic jungler and you could have moved to your best role: support.  This would have made your team much stronger, at least that's how I see it.  

However, you opted to stay in the shotcaller role that decides which lanes win and which lose, because you wanted to keep playing your team games with great synergy and have control over how things went.

That's fine, it's great.   What I don't get is how you don't look back and say "Oh I totally get it now.  It wasn't personal, it wasn't a knock on my skill level, or anything like that.  Thunder just wanted what I wanted: to have distraction free games where everyone was on the same page and playing like a team when he played Ranked 5's."

i think we need bann pacov for 3 days to he think better 

who vote yes?

bann pacov for 3 days we are the tribunal  

GG

Now, i don't know the game that you're talking about and if i was in it / watching / whatever.

And assuming that it is Karl who reamed you about Baron

First of all, you do have a habit of splitpushing often as a support. Sometimes that's fine, there's gold dying to tower... things are warded... no real objectives... neither team is grouped... etc. Some supports are just flat-out better at splitpushing than other. Fiddle kills stuff a lot faster than Nami, for example.

More probably, people saw you splitting bot slowly killing creep waves and internally went *sigh*. Even though the 4v5 midlane wasn't successful for the enemy team, they were frustrated to see you farming creeps botlane as a support at 30 minutes.

Even though you died for a tower + got 3-manned (an overall increase in team gold and relieves enemy pressure), sometimes your team was really far ahead and if you had just 5v5'd you could have gotten an Ace and an inhibitor.

Plus, trading towers for deaths isn't always a good idea once bigger objectives start coming into play. Trading a life for a tower at the 40 minutes can certainly lose games... Trading teleport, ult, flash and a death for a tower with only 50 hp remaining isn't a good trade either, regardless of the stage of the game.

Anyway my understanding of that particular situation (from whoever got the most angry) was:

1- pacov is splitpushing as a support again. argggg

2- oh well he got a tower. died for it. let's try to do something.

3- we misplay, damn it.

4- IF ONLY PACOV WASNT SPLITPUSHING. #3 could have been prevented by just 5v5'ing. RAGE.

Of course, #3 could also have been prevented by just ... not screwing up. Which is an important thing to consider. But people may not have been so frustrated during #1 and #4 if there wasn't a habit of you splitpushing as a support? The feelings of frustration may not have just came from that single game. Just like your feelings of frustrating don't come from a single game.

On the other hand, your post appears to summarize to be: "my team screwed up and then gave them baron, not me. And then they blamed me a lot. But i had a net gain since a tower is better than a death. But they just threw shit away.  THEY gave them baron. Not me.".

A more accurate (and must less emotionally poignant) statement is "both my actions and my team's actions resulted in the enemy team getting baron".

Even though you "traded" a tower for a kill + baron versus your team trading nothing for 3 kills + baron ... it's still a negative trade.

Anyway, just a thing to consider when splitpushing... 1v0 is really easy. When a splitpusher kills a tower, it's really not "oh look guys i got a tower. look how good i am for the team". The other 4 people have to pressure and be pressured while you do that. That's the hard part. 1v0 is easy.

It's the same thing as soloing baron. If you're soloing baron at 18 minutes as Trynd/Nunu/Yi/whatever... the rest of your team can't just walk down together bot lane you know?

And so (frequently) you get the easy job, even though it might work out great and get us an inhibitor/dragon/baron/whatever. i mean splitpushing isn't ALWAYS the wrong thing to do. But when you get to just right click things and then say "well iiiiii got us a dragon. wtf are you guys doing?" tends to ... get people excited, to say the least.

Generally, our group doesn't really get annoyed by people:

1- playing new champions

2- feeding (as long as you aren't whining about jungle ganks constantly)

3- not having a lot of wards

4- missing smites

Our group does tend to get frustrated by:

1- bad initiations

2- extremely bad positioning or teamfight focus

3- poorly done splitpushing (eg, when everyone else is a base and you die for free. if baron is up. etc)

4- off-meta stuff (eg, double bruiser bot. certain champion choices like heal Garen against Nasus).

Pretty much... no one cares that much if you completely misplay the first 20 minutes of the game. If we have to deal with a 12/0 Tristana who wins the game at 23 minutes... at least it's over quick.

What does flare people up is when something terrible happens at the 40 minute mark. Part of that is because a lot of our group (myself, thunder, Cow, Karl) tend to gravitate towards teamfight focused champions and playstyle.

In closing... appealing to "normal games don't really matter why do you get so frustrated if i get to do ____ and throw" doesn't really work for our group since our group... mostly only plays Normals. It'd be different if it were more of an 80/20 split and when we played normals we were all drinking and doing stupid shit.

i do also think some of your frustration stems from being pidgeon-holed into support a lot recently. And when you get to play not-support, we get pissed off at Jungle Tryndamere (because it's a 4v5 for 15 minutes even if you get the early 800 gold dragon... and even if you carry at 40 minutes and win everytime. it's still frustrating). So you feel like either:

1- you play a role you have played way too much of recently and you don't want to do it anymore

2- when you do get a role you want to play everyone is angry at you before the game even starts.

Since it hasn't really been a problem with people getting invited and "stealing" mid when i'm in the group... i can definitely fill a bit more often. My original stance of "mid or dodge" was mostly because a few months ago i very rarely got mid and i was the fill-bitch and i got sick of it. i can certainly try to support more often if you think that is going to make the game a bit more enjoyable for you.

I'll address some of the larger, systematic things that pacov brought up later when I have time.  I'll just address the specific case that pacov brought up here, which was indeed me getting upset about yet another support split push (although other pickups were also upset about the split push as well).

The facts as I remember them:

In this specific case, we were substantially ahead and had a strong teamfighting comp.  One of our pickups made the call to group.  4 of us grouped mid.  Pacov chose to override the team call and split push bot as support Soraka.  This froze out 4 of us for a substantial amount of time.  He eventually bananad down the first bot tower at the cost of his life, while we tried a quick grab of a mid tower.  We got caught, which led to very bad things.  The rest of the team, me included, largely blamed pacov for this since he ignored the grouping call in favor of split push support.

My comments:

Split push support is not a thing in the vast majority of cases.  Pacov says it was a bad rotation.  But pretty much all of us have repeatedly asked him to completely remove this rotation from the thought process.  You should almost never consider solo rotating a weak solo support like Soraka.  Especially when that rotation involves the support sitting 1v0 for a long period of time, which was the case here.  It is not useful to the team.  Even if there is a big wave there, it is not a support Soraka's job to go down and take it, especially when the rest of the team is grouping.  If this was the first or even the 10th time that this has happened, it would be no big deal, but this is happening very frequently

Now, my belief is that pacov's thought process is basically this: "I am sacrificing a death for a tower.  Tower is worth more than kill, so this is a good thing!".

This is not a good analysis, which is what I was trying to point out when pacov got upset and refused to listen.  While pacov is splitpushing as support, the other 80% of his team is able to do nothing.  They can't farm.  They can't establish vision.  They can't jungle.  Any small mistake they make will catastrophically snowball into multiple objectives, probably including a baron and inhib.  On the other hand, the other team is able to freely farm and establish vision.  Thus, its a bad play from a gold, vision, and risk of disaster perspective at that point in the game (very early in the game its fine).

Other champions can effectively split push because they can push down towers fast enough to make the team gold/xp/vision loss worth it. Support  Soraka/Janna/Leona cannot.  I don't understand why it is happening nearly every game when pacov plays champions like that.

Larger picture from this issue:

As has been pointed out, there are many things that our group actually doesn't whine much about.  But the one thing that will get people complaining is this: WHEN SOMEBODY DOES THE SAME NEGATIVE THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.  I think that complaints about this is reasonable.  After all, we play together a lot, and it is frustrating to have games lost due to the same person making the same (easily correctible) mistakes over and over again.

Now, I'm well aware that MadCast as a group is generally much more tolerant of people doing the same silly things over and over again.  They have many examples of players who do this and MadCast generally tolerates it remarkably well.  Many of these players are still in silver despite thousands of ranked games played and thousands more normal games played.

I and several others here find these silver players very frustrating to play with, and do not find them to be role models.

As I said previously, there are some other systemtic issues that I will address in a bit.

Your memory of the Soraka push differs substantially from mine.  I will review video if possible when I have time.

You can try to dig up the vid if you want, karl.  I think you are missing the point if you are feeling an overwhelming need to try to prove me wrong here.  I've also clearly stated that folks can expect less goofy arse split pushing from me and explained the entirety of my reasoning behind that particular decision. 

also - shut it, rui. 

Well, the problem is that I disagree with the premises of your decision (for example, I don't think we were under siege, as I recall, we didn't even have vision of the vast majority of their team).  It's not an issue of proving somebody right and wrong - if two people can't agree on the premises of a discussion, there can be no discussion since there is no foundation on which to base any reasoning.

Here's something cool for thosed that dig teambuilder

https://twitter.com/RiotBlackrook/status/459059745416937472

Happy birthday, swan.  hue

mmkay.

So, less dramatic jibba jabba today.

Anyone have thoughts on the new feral flare.  I've only been able to play 1 game as a jungler that uses FF since the patch went in (the change is a price increase and it takes 30 stacks to get the ff upgrade vs 25 stacks).  When you look at the numbers, its not a huge nerf, but at least in the game I played, it certainly felt like a colossal nerf.  In all... literally all of my previous trynd games, I'd be able to get the ff upgrade locked down and in place pretty quickly (exact time of the upgrade elludes me, but I'd always have wriggles built by about 6 minutes) and then always lock down that 1st dragon solo.  I that most recent game, I have a bit of a set back early in the jungle and it substantially reduced my effectiveness and it took a really, really long time to get the ff upgrade in place.  Anyway, not 100% sure it was just a bad game or the nerf pretty strong... I can just say the nerf was extremely painful after getting counter jungled a smidge. Anyone have thoughts or feedback re: the new FF?

I got to play rammus last night, which was fun, Well.. fun to a point.  I had to jungle against this annoying, but somewhat dumb, kayle.  She spent an awful amount of time trying to track me down in the jungle with minimal effect.  I couldn't really fight her heads up, so I'd just bugger off a sec, then smite whatever she was trying to steal... then wait around a few seconds and clear the camp once she buggered off.  Her crappy counter jungling was probably more valuable to us as we generally had a good idea where she was.  That said, I really dislike not have junglers I can go put the smack down on them.  With rammus, I'm literally like ok and run away a bit.  Rammus feels super weak early/mid (missed ganks = OUCH) - stronger ofc if you pull them off.  That said, it is oh so satisfying to flash while in ball form, jump a creep wave, and taunt an enemy champ. 

Oh - and sorry about your net problems last night, hedgie.  That sucks and I know is super frustrating.  Hopefully whatever the problem is abates some for ya!

So... dbl IP weekend.  I kind of don't care... might put some time in on my alt account.  Guess I can always buy the remaining crap runes on my main.  Nice they are doing another one of these weekends though.

Back to feral flare - I'm still feeling like the nerf may have been a bit over the top - granted I've only played jungle twice now with it since the stat changes... and both games didn't go exceedingly well early/mid.  So... guess I'm not really sure, but its been a chore to get all those stacks. 

55 stacks feral open fight nasus and elise solo 2 kill´s

Its always fun to play with well known members of the community !

LOL