Refineries are profitable if you build them at the right well.  However, those locations on the map tend to be rare and so the issue almost never comes up in online multiplayer PvP.  No one even thinks about it and almost all players follow the general rule that you shouldn't waste money on refineries and thus don't build them even where they do make sense.

Refineries need a small buff.

Well, they're both worth the same in MP and SP (and should rarely be built), but efficient use of your money and slots is much more important on ICO, so yeah.

To return to the original question: I do not think they should be removed. They are a part of the game as much as trade ports and make room for different strategic options during the game. And if you think they are useless, well, it is always your own choice to build them or not.

Agreed, do not delete refineries. I personally would like to see trade ports reworked a bit as they seem to easily get out of control. Just my opinion though.

Nerfing trade a little might also make culture a little more important for the Advent to get early on as well and remain competitive.  I think the races should be able to rely on their strengths for their economy but have the other techs as extra to fill in gaps later.  The TEC should have to get trade up early on because trade is their thing but refineries should be worth it later on (resource focus, I'm looking at you too).  Vasari get trade so late I guess they have to rely on their dual extraction techs?  I don't play them often so I'm not sure.

Vasari start getting neutrals 3 minutes into the game and hold on to them forever. They're fine.

I have an idea for that (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/413585)...

Doesn't solve the refinery problem, but it does help to nerf trade...

If the sole purpose was to nerf trade, then adjusting the return values for trade ports would be the easiest and most direct way to tackle the issue...another complementary change would be to reduce the bonus determined by the length of your longest trade route (currently set at 7.5% per node)...

These changes are easy to implement and would almost certainly be effective in reducing the power of trade...and if that was your only concern, then I agree that messing with logistics would be kind of silly...

So, refineries become more competitive, but only because trade ports are nerfed...I personally would rather see refineries buffed to the level of trade ports, and I most favor a simple cost reduction (which may be all that is needed)...

Changing logistics is not the most direct way to nerf trade...more to the point, those proposed changes really are more targeted at exacerbating diminishing returns (something that is more controversial and probably an entirely different discussion)...changing logistics in that proposed manner reduces the impact of trade relative to your other economic assets, but it doesn't really nerf trade per se...after all, each trade port costs the same and yields the same returns...

I guess it really becomes a discussion of semantics...changing the logistics mechanism would not nerf trade on a per port basis, but economies invariably would depend less on trade (and refineries) and more on tax income and extractors...whether that actually qualifies as a nerf to trade I'm not so sure now, and I probably should have been more careful with my wording earlier...

Here is a series of changes I have worked with that seem to reduce the power and importance of trade:

1) Use the new logistic system suggested above

2) Change the trade length bonus from 7.5% per node to 2.5% per node

3) All ice/volcanic planets now spawn with 3 or 4 extractors instead of 2,3, or 4...

4) Base extraction rate is raised from .46 to .5 (it is important to note that currently the actual base rate is .4, but on normal speed the economic modifier is actually +15%, which raises it to .46...I'm working with a base of .5, but with an economic modifier on normal speed of +0%, so for all intents and purposes extractors go from .46 to .5)

5) Reduce the cost of refineries (the exact credit/metal/crystal has yet to be determined, but let's just assume it is exactly equal to that of a trade port for now)

Change 1 is more for diminishing returns, and equally affects both trade ports and refineries...change 2 is a direct nerf to trade ports (which consequently makes refineries more competitive)...change 3 is mostly to prevent those awful bad luck ice/volcanics with only 2 roids, but it does slightly raise the average number of extractors any given refinery could pull from...change 4 makes extractors more important relative to trade, but it doesn't actually help refineries become more powerful (two different values in the entity files)...change 5 makes both structures have the same capital costs...

In general, changes 1, 3, and 4 make trade and refineries less important relative to extractor income (ie trade and refineries makes up a smaller percentage of your economic output)...change 3 however means that trade is nerfed more than refineries (if only very slightly)...change 2 is a direct nerf to trade ports, and change 5 is a direct buff to refineries...

You could toy around with the actual outputs of trade ports and refineries as well, but so far I haven't done that...

As the thread title suggests, refineries have become marginalized...there are very few situations where a refinery is preferable to a trade port...

If you want refineries to be more competitive, you either have to nerf trade or buff refineries (or a combination there of)...personally, I'd rather buff refineries but in theory either approach could work if your only concern is to make refineries comparable to trade ports....

This is a problem I've been wrestling with for a while, and I still haven't found an adequate solution that can be obtained purely through modding...changing logistics sort of helps, and GoaFan has suggested another mechanism that could yield similar results...however, in both cases I feel the proposed system simply "raises the threshold", the point where trade just becomes ridiculous...

What you are suggesting is, in concept, probably what would need to happen in order to directly tackle the problem...is 10 the right number to set as the threshold?  I don't know, but in concept I like your idea...

Unfortunately, it can't be accomplished in a mod (which is what I really really want)...Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had some pretty complicated formulas embedded in the game (as have some of the Civilization games) but those are different development teams, so who knows....

For super large empires, bonuses to trade become far more valuable than bonuses to tax income or resource extraction....however, bonuses to allegiance also become very powerful on large maps...so, at least in theory, all 3 factions have some mechanism that is pretty weak for super small empires but gets ridiculously powerful for super large empires...

I don't think anyone wants trade to be nerfed into oblivion, but it is out of control, especially for larger empires...

Because sins does not have things like "resources", a trade port anywhere is still a trade port...would adding things like "resources" make sins more interesting?  Probably....though how it would be implemented I'm not so sure...

I would point out that refineries are "limited" in that each extractor can only support three refineries...trade ports however have no such limitation, and don't require "favorable locations" that are nearby lots of extractors (something that is entirely the product of chance)....

Generally you want them at planets that are nearby lots of extractors...this includes not only the extractors of the planet the refinery is built at, but the extractors of all nearby gravity wells (so, within one phase jump)....

How many nearby extractors are needed to make a refinery better than a trade port is dependent on the length of your longest trade route (where each node provides a 7.5% bonus to all trade)...it is also worth noting that the extractors of uncolonizable gravity wells provide 33% more resources via refineries than do the extractors of colonizable planets...

But even if you did calculate that threshold, refineries cost a lot more than trade ports and therefore take a lot longer to payoff...so basically, refineries are almost always inferior to trade ports...modded versions of the game can easily change this, most often inadvertently by having a higher density of extractors....

agreed!

Building a refinery per planet as a rule of thumb is definitely not an efficient use of your funds...