I like simultaneous turns, and I like that once one player ends his turn, the pressure is on to complete your turn.

Five or ten seconds for a turn though? That seems insane for a TBS that is more like a RTS clickfest! To me the charm of a TBS over an RTS is the ability to think through your moves. If there are options for those that want a bit more adrenaline, i have no problem with that as long as there is a true TBS option with VERY healthy (but not unlimited) time limits.

Of course, I expect to be playing mostly single player NEways...

 

 

 

The more the game mechanics interact with turn time, the more the core game is shackled to a parameter that people are going to want to change based on personal preference.  Being able to limit turn time in multiplayer is an unimpeachable option, but being able to exchange money and turn time is going to be a thorny balance issue for varying turn times, map options, etc., and involving time buildings in the city planning aspect of the game seems like a very bad idea.  Some people are going to be able to do their turns faster than others, and what this will amount to in the end is a system of exploits and hobbles -- slow turn-takers filling up their cities with otherwise useless buildings, fast ones getting lots of free money.  And is there an in-world explanation for the time/gold exchange?  I really don't want to have an explanation of how I won a game of Elemental boil down to "I took my turns as fast as possible!"

All that aside, the turn length examples given in the journal entry are shockingly short.  I presume they're not intended to represent likely final results.

Another thing about turn length -- at the start of the game turns will be shorter.  As the game goes on, people will need more time to manage their empires.  A single limit across the whole game -- will that be balanced by the players being forced to build time buildings as the game progresses?  What about in singleplayer?  (Although concerning variable turn length and the fast turns of the early game, an option to impose a shorter time limit on the first X turns might be a good idea.  See also my quick start idea.)

Players are often attracted to turn-based games by their capacity for carefully measured decisions made without time pressure.  In MP, and certainly in SP, there will be plenty of people who don't want to deal with time limits.  An elaborate system to bind time limits into core gameplay will be wasted on them.  A time limit system is a good thing to have, but it ought to be self-contained.

And as an afterthought, I don't mind WE GO turn processing in the Combat Mission games, but I think sequential is probably better for something on the scale of Elemental.  I don't want, for example, to have an army trying to fight an enemy army that never actually engages the enemy army because every time my army moves, the enemy army simultaneously moves elsewhere.

... I like this idea, of minimum time as well as Time + fastest player. As well as time banks ... accumulated by anyone that finishes before the minimum time has run out.

Yea ... thats pretty much my favorite idea.

While I do like the ideas of using simultaneous turns or a turn bank system (which I think would add a cool level to the game) I had thought of another alternative. Not sure if this has been done before but I think it might be interesting to have a normal round robin turn system in which one person is planning his turn and all others are engaged in a mini game that somehow would tie into the "real" game. This would give all others something to do when not in a turn and could add to the depth of the game. I am just brainstorming but I was thinking of something along the lines of political maneuverings behind the scenes, this could be a chat interface or perhaps a screen of offers and counter offers that could be sent between players. Pledges of allegiance, information exchange, marriage offers, etc.
Or perhaps the mini game could be to control npc characters and creatures to target the other factions with these units.

Other than that the mini games could just be fun games that don’t necessarily need to be tied to the main game, they could just be fun games to pass the time of turns. 

Guys... I've just worked it out. Frogboy wants to use micro-transactions to allow players to buy a section of time, $0.1 per 10 second slot. There will be a big BUY TIME SLOT button o the interface that you can hit when you REALLY need that extra time.

 

Its all so clear now!!

 

Lets face it though, if there is a 'pay for extra time with gold' option very few people will actually use it. Theres no way brad would force it down your throat - how ever much he would enjoy it.

Please please please make WE GO an option.

 

I don't really care if its laser squad nemesis or combat mission styled. But please don't give the advantage to the person who moves fastest, which is the problem with simultaneous games in CIV.

 

In a play by email (not sure if this is on the cards) I truly think you need to be able to review what orders are being sent.

 

In a real time (everyone online at the same time) game having the server resolve everyones moves at once  would make me happy, preferably while still being able to do city/kingdom management at any time.

Just making most things an "option" seems to be the best (and safest).  You Go-I Go; Simultanious; Time Bank, all of them.  If Civ can do it, I'm sure Stardock can give it a stab

I think a time bank system would more break multiplayer games than anything. Especially stall them too. I think the best way to go along time banks is if players that are losing badly against other opponents gain only 10 percent of the time they would originally have and add that on top to give them a little more breathing space.

The more I think about the concept of a 'time bank', the more I hate it.

 

I generally don't play multiplayer TBS unless I'm talking directly to the people I'm playing with.

 

If I weren't, I think rushing through a turn in 15/10/5 seconds would utterly ruin the experience for me.

 

Part of the strategy genre to me is 'the mind game' Talking with your opponent, making a friend here and there.

 

Besides, when have you ever, ever played a TBS into the hundreds of turns where (if you're playing seriously and managing everything you can) those turns didn't take minutes at a time.

Sure, it isn't the best way to do multiplayer TBS. (And lets face it, MP TBS is a fickle beast at best)

But a 'time bank' would make me not play it at all.

Exactly. The biggest problem with TBS in multiplayer is, of course, the waiting while other players make their turns. Instead of trying to speed up a player's turn, break it apart so that I'm getting a 'turn' more often and thus less continuous waiting. Personally, 5 seconds blocks of doing nothing here or there doesn't phase me. 10 seconds is getting a tad annoying, with thirty seconds being borderline unacceptable, depending on the game.
There are a few ways this 'round robin' could be done, however I think Paladin's idea pretty much nails it on the head. Having said that, I would also like to see a time limit to each person's turn that would be set before the game began so that I, as a player, know how much time is left before I get to 'play' again.
Something else that has been mentioned is the addition of a benefit giving Mini-game. I don't like the idea of it giving benefits, however Mini-games are something that will be modded into the game (thanks, Python!) if its not included in the release version; my suggestion is a few smaller games. I had a multi-player Chess added into World of Warcraft when I played, as well as a very good version of Tetris. I might suggest something original, and more 'Elemental'-ly, but its definatly something that should be considered.

(Apologies for the length).

I've given the TBS + multiplayer problem a lot of thought over the past several years so I would propose three (or really two and a half) options.

Traditional Plus

In this mode, turns would occur in sequential order as normal (player A first, then B, then C, etc). However, while player A was taking their turn, all other players would have full access to everything they would normally be able to do on their turn. This means they can design units, change build queues, move units etc. the catch being that none of the actions would actually take place until they confirmed the actions on their turn.

For example: while player A takes their turn, player B designs a unit and sets it to build while player C issues move orders to their units (or any other actions). When player A ends a turn, player B can confirm all their actions taken during A's turn so that they actually take effect and then proceed with their turn as normal (meanwhile A and C are planning moves).

I see three major advantages to this system:

1. It should be relatively easy to implement (depending, of course, on how the code works now).

2. It actually shortens wait time between turns because players are planning, movng, and adapting to the other players actions prior to their turn actually taking place, resulting in shorter official turn times.

3. It retains most of the advantages and appeal of TBS systems.

Additionally, a time limit could be added to prevent a player from just sitting on their turn.

Simultaneous Turns

Overall, I like this idea. However, the idea of a timer starting when the first player hits the turn button seems very abuse prone to me. Imagine a player in a situation where victory is strategically impossible (or with a drastically smaller territory to manage than his opponents) just trying to hit the turn button as fast as possible to force the next turn and limit the actions the other players can make (a good real world strategy, that has nothing to do with how well they play the game). Or imagine a sore loser just hitting the turn button at the start of the turn in the end game when large territories and critical battles abound!

Instead I would propose that when a game begins, the players would agree to a time limit on turn length. When the turn timer reaches 0, players would have a brief opportunity (5-10 seconds) to vote on whether or not to reset the timer (to take more actions on this turn), or move on to the next turn. A player could also choose to end their turn prior to the timer expiring preventing further moves that turn and automatically voting to advance to the next turn when the timer expires. Players could also vote at any point to change the timers length.

In the interest of fairness however, I would only consider this option viable if:

1. Actions taken during a turn do not actually take place until the end of a turn.

2. Unit movement will automatically adjust to other unit movement (ie, if unit A attacks unit B, but B moves, A will change it's path in an effort to intercept unit B ). This mechanic would also have apply to situations where something in a location needs to be "claimed", perhaps forcing a battle or comparing unit speeds (not player speed) to see who "gets" it.

While this would help keep the game moving, the major disadvantage of this option would be bringing the TBS closer to RTS, generally rewarding speed over strategy in my opinion.

Allied Mode

In this mode,allied players would take their turns simultaneously, thus, shortening the time between turns. Unfortunately, if alliances are subject to change and or there are no allies, this mode becomes less and less useful. Therefore, I would propose this be an "add on" to Traditional or Traditional Plus mode rather than a mode in and of itself.

 

Finally, just a couple of thoughts:

1. I would like to keep "hot seat" style play as an option, just in case.

2. I think the On/Human only/Off tactical battle idea is excellent, along with limiting it to large/critical battles.

3. I don't think the "Time Bank" idea works very well compared to other options. I don't see any benefit since early turns are usually shorter than later turns anyway.

4. I personally dislike the time is money (gold = time) mechanic. I can see it as an optional add in for players who want really fast game play, but I would definitely like to see it remain an optional component.

So that's it, my two cents. Looks like a good game, keep it up!

 

 

 think that auto-resolve should be the default of all trivial-to-moderate sized battles. Epic conflicts should be able to be opted-in just because of the high stakes at hand.

Simitaneous turns are bad. Very bad. Nice concept but open to abuse and also open to bugs.

Abuse such as clicking faster than everyone else, trying to end other peoples' turns prematurely, waiting out timers so that the other person plays "end turn" before doing sneak attacks, etc etc etc.

However, being able to queue actions (modify your governo'rs priorities, design new units, queue building productions, etc etc etc) are all very, very important and allow "pseudo-simul" movement. I know that in Civ IV you can do city management, etc even in "end turn" mode, so it should be something similar to that but perhaps a little more thourough (make sure that you ask for permission before executing moves, etc etc, though!).

Regarding turn-timers all three of these need to be guarenteed:

A minimum amount of time given to all players (that gradually increases as the game continues)

A maximum amount of time given to all players

A maximum "wait time".

 

Early game you have a 30 second minimum turn with a 5 minute max. After all players (but you) have "readied up" you have 2 minutes to complete your turn. But, regardless of everything you cannot take more than 5 minutes unless multiple people still want to move, where as the "vote" system works well (eg, if 3 out of 5 people haven't completed their turns the last 5-10 seconds could have a "vote to extend" which would extend the max timer by 1 minute. At least 50% of players would have to vote for the extension to go into effect. Players who have ended their turn vote "no" by default).

I know the vote-to-extend violates the maximum wait time but I think that it would happen rather infrequently and if HALF THE PLAYERS need more time then something else is at fault (the maximum time is too short), which isn't neccassarily the devlopper's fault, maybe that game is just very active at that stage in the game.

But, it should have the maximum wait time to prevent stalling. If minimum time is 3 minutes, maximum is 5 and max wait is 2, if I end my turn at 140 seconds, then you only have 260 seconds to move. If I ended my turn immediately, you still get 180. Even this system is prone to abuse though :-/