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Balance Suggestion

JohnJames

Join Date 03/2008

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Balance Suggestion

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Applies to both version

Set strike craft build rate penality to 50%

(DO NOT adjust Flak. this will change the game too much)

2) (this one is not a must)

Maximize the amount of ships the Marz damage using missle barriage

Give each race at least two ways to directly stop missile barriage

Tec has 3

Advent has 2

Vas has 1

Repulse needs to be addressed. Currently it affects all units including Caps (Vas SB are strucutres)

For all 3 races standard counters are LRMS (barely) or fighters

Tec: 0 direct counters (other then cap ablities which are out of range. Suggest increasing range of hosh demo bots to be able to reach guardians when using repulse and disable abilities (currently only does damage and disable weapons)

Advent: 0 direct counters (other then cap ablities which are out of range. Seeing 2 advent using repulse is a funny. Subj suprression is out of range

Vas. Subs but doesnt affect capital ships and AOE is small. Suggest increasing range and include caps in its affect (like repulse)

Decrease repulse range and/or duration. Also caps should not be affected

Unit for unit lums are over powered.

In my test the other race needs to spend at least twice as much to go head to head in lrms.

Yes you could use other units like scouts, flak, hc, etc.... but the fact that vas has to make 2x+ more assilants or for tec 3x+ lrms is crazy. I suggest either giving each race a unit advantage like Tec hc able to fire in 3 different direction or vas skirms able to fire in 3 different direction like lums. Each race should have a super unit

Increase build time for lums and/or increase cost. OR decrease damage of side beams.

For Entrenchment only

Starbase build time on hostile grav is too fast. Mainly appiles to vas but all 3 races should have their build time increase by 20% at first tweak later if needed.

strategy

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With MB, if you DO have a target cap, it should be 40, or close to it. Also, with Carriers, what they could do is, instead of beefing up carriers and their respective counter-ships... beef up the strikecraft they carry. Like , increase the damage from each ship by about 33%, and increase hull strength (not Advent) by about 15% (Advent don't really need such help, but this SHOULD make it even, given that Advent essentially OWN the "sky" abouve my fleet, regardless of carrier/carrier ratio). Also, maybe its a good idea to beef up Capital Carriers to counter the nerfing of Cruiser carriers. Like, a 9 squad max. for each carrier, and carrier bonuses (like Heavy Fighters for TEC) that apply to ALL strikecraft in the same grav. well... that also should help bring carriers back to the drawing board in term of fleet vs. fleet AND fleet vs. defenses.

I dunno, just ideas floating around, tell me whatcha think

Koda0 (^)

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Koda0

It'S not beefing up carrier it's unerfing them.

2nd you realy can'T mess with the strike craft them selves since your creating a bigger balance nightmare. Say you buff hit points on SC great now they last longer againts flak but they cant kill each otehr anymore. So you buff their weapons, now they can kill each otehr gain but cream LRFs like its not even funny and are effective againts targets they shouldn't be. And so on. It's a never ending cycle. The SC them selves are FINE. And like they say if it ain't broken don't fix it.

What'S broken are the carriers them selves. Now that need fixing.

Straing off from unerfing the carrier is just a big can of worms and lots of head each trying to figure out a whole new balance. Takes ages.

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All that needs to be fixed is flak vs fighter right now. If this was fixed lrf could be countered without bringing back old build rates.

I agree with this. I think most understand the idea of build rate penelties durning battle. It commits you to fighters or bombers. But but being able to very hard counter 100 fleet supply of carrier fighters with 25 fleet supply of flak is not balanced by any stretch IMHO.

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Nah You could make scutlelign of the SC LONGER, Much longer it it would prevent that.

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actually Ead has a point. one of the problems with decreasing the build time is you can switch your fighters/ bombers mid battle. if scuttle time was incresed it would make switching mid battle difficult and it would allow more reasonable build times for carriers.

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Good point. I hadn't considered scuttle time. I guess I was thinking more along the lines that fighters should have the flak counter and be suppressable just not as easily as they are in Entrenchment. With the whacked balance issuse introduced in Entrenchment I'm almost sorry I bought it.

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Its a good point but it would very annoying and the scuttle time would have to be massive.I dont think balance is that much of an issue.The only thing needing balanced is flak to fighter damage imo.There will still be the issue of if you clear out fighters for bombers they will have a very short time before they are killed by fighters.Then its back to all fighter builds because fighters can damage everything.

If you make damage rates to fighters near the same as bombers then fighters will die but last long enuf to kill lrf.Fighters will still be clearable and bombers viable.It just wont work well soley with flak.You will need flak+fighter combos.If flak did just a tiny bit more damage to other ships it would keep their usefullness in a fleet up.

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On a side note and Im not sure if this already happens but when sc dock they should heal instantly.

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NO MindsEye even if you kill all SC in a wing you cannot star building the other type before you scuttle it. And a SC wing takes as much time to scuttle weatehr it is at 100% or 0%. And 2-4 minutes would surfice plenty if you and ina script that will force all SC being scuttled to dock and remain docked until scuteled or scutteling is canceled.

And in aditiong to that you culd also use the fact were enemies are present or not in the grav well to affect the scuteling time. So in a no enemy Gravwell it could take 2 minutes while under fire take 4 minutes.

Sittign there for a solid 4 minutes without any SC out can be a hassard to your health. Also after that you need to build the freaking SC.

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I feel like people are making the fix to carrier problem more complicated then it has to be. Nerfing flak isnt the solution. You change too many things with nerfing flak (counter to scouts, lrms, mine clearing). Changing HP of sc or armor type again complicates things (changes to advent push, tech flak burst, vas microphasing). Simple sollution is adjusting build penality

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Quoting JohnJames,

reply 10

Exactly. Any otehr chnage outside from takign away teh carrier build nerf is affecting lost of other aspects oft he game. In fact changing anything else could make the problem worst or creat whole new problems.

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Im with JJ on this one.

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What if Repulse was a targeted AoE? It would work pretty much like it does now but it would be less powerful. Caps could be uneffected or pushed slower too.

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Repulse should not affect caps. You can just bounce cap back and forth until it dies. Its actually funny to do

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JJ I use repulse to counter nano otherwise my caps die super fast.The way I see it is its sorta even.When you enter a grav well and you dont have repulse and there is egg with kanracks your cap is basically out of the battle and you lose all bonus from it.Well if you show up and the guy had repulse now you should keep you cap out of the battle which is less of a hit because vas fleet dont rely as much on caps.Now you know why people complain about the egg because it pretty much sucks when you cant even get your cap close to enemy fleet or it automatically dead.

I agree with you tho its not fair when your cap gets stuck on a repulse field and wont turn or do anything.If you let the enemy get guardians all around you then maybe you should lose it.

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The problem with repulse is its range, the antimatter it uses, and the fact that it affects caps. You can use repulse to prevent all units including caps from reaching the edge of a grav well in order to jump. You can position 3 guardians in a triangle formation and prevent all ships from escaping by just bouncing them until you kill everything with lums. Tell me any unit that affects caps like that.

Subs are the closes unit and they dont have the same range, duration, antimatter usage nor do they affects caps.

Most argue to use lrf against guardians with repulse, but sadly the most op unit belongs to the race that has repulse. It would be different if lums sucked, then you can easily argue to just use lrf, but you cant.

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I think if they fix the carriers you wont have such a problem with lums anymore and repulse wont be so bad.I am not sure that if you nerf repulse it will be to hard to use and a waste anymore.All 3 races have powerful abilities:mb,repulse,nano+suck,phase missiles.

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Assailants have no problems taking out Guardians with upgraded Phase Missiles.

Another idea would be to swap Perseverance and Repulse so that Guardians could heal with T5 tech and Subjugators would Repulse as T7 tech. Subjugators are easier to kill and Repulse is more powerful than Perseverance.

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In regards to JJ's "super unit"

I suggest either giving each race a unit advantage

Each race does have at least 1 unit thats significantly more powerful than its counterparts, the difference is 1) lums are at least 3 times as strong as ships of the same type 2) lrms are such a dominant strategy. Illuminators start out at tier 3 with an ability its brothers have to research at tier 4, splash damage. It also has a much larger AOE than cluster bombs or charged strikes, removing the spreading out of your fleet as a viable counter. But it also has another ability on top of that, the illusions. The infocard says something to the effect that it makes the illuminator 40% less likely to take damage.

Also illuminators can take on a fleet of the vasari's generally stronger unit the skirmisher with no problem and is even a match for a fleet of the tecs generally stronger unit the kodiak.

This forces opponents fleets to diversify their fleet and add in support ships just to battle with an illum fleet and survive, while the illuminators can stand on their own, or with the help of only 1 other kind of ship (defense vessels or drones hosts), adding in support caps and heavy cruisers only serves as overkill. And I mean sure you can beat an illuminator spam, and even a battle ball, but it isn't easy, even against players with poorer skill than your own.

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Quoting Deceiver_0,

reply 19

And lrf aren't supposed to hard counter support frigates. LF are and they cant get anywhere near those guardians. Maybe if there anti-anitmatter abilites had the same range as repulse, throwing a couple of light frigates in there would actually HELP against somethign that strong, whether it be disabling it for a brief time (kobalts) stealing their am and giving it to your ships(disciples) or making it cost additional AM and increasing the cooldown time (skirmishers). THe problems is they can't reach. I don't think boosting the range of those abilities to match that of repulse is too much to ask for. For any other race you can say "ok for those unoits I need these units to counter them and for those you need these" but currentlythe counters to repulse lie only with Vasari (the orkulus being immune to repulse, and bombers able to penetrate those thick shields) and their only soft counters, for the tec you just have to take it and hope you come out on top.

In regards to JJ's "super unit"

I suggest either giving each race a unit advantage

Each race does have at least 1 unit thats significantly more powerful than its counterparts, the difference is 1) lums are at least 3 times as strong as ships of the same type 2) lrms are such a dominant strategy. Illuminators start out at tier 3 with an ability its brothers have to research at tier 4, splash damage. It also has a much larger AOE than cluster bombs or charged strikes, removing the spreading out of your fleet as a viable counter. But it also has another ability on top of that, the illusions. The infocard says something to the effect that it makes the illuminator 40% less likely to take damage.

Also illuminators can take on a fleet of the vasari's generally stronger unit the skirmisher with no problem and is even a match for a fleet of the tecs generally stronger unit the kodiak.

This forces opponents fleets to diversify their fleet and add in support ships just to battle with an illum fleet and survive, while the illuminators can stand on their own, or with the help of only 1 other kind of ship (defense vessels or drones hosts), adding in support caps and heavy cruisers only serves as overkill. And I mean sure you can beat an illuminator spam, and even a battle ball, but it isn't easy, even against players with poorer skill than your own.

Just making a few points. Illums do not have any form of splash damage. They have sidebeams that damage 2 other ships if positioned right(more micro). They do no have an area effect of any kind. It should also be worth mentioning that illuminators do less damage per beam bank than any other LRF. Only 50% of illum damage is in the front and 25% on each side. So if you don't position yourself to let the advent take advantage of all beams then you gimp the damage to be done. The vasari skirmisher is a light frigate and SHOULD be countered by illuminators(I think you are refering to the skarovas enforcer which is the vasari HC). Illuminators against kodiaks with no repulsing guardians get torn to pieces even with much greater numbers of illuminators. Also have you ever tried to use LF against any other support cruiser? It doesnt work out well. Hoshis are generally smack in the middle of LRMs or kodiaks and LF get chewed to pieces. Subverters just disable and fleet just chews to pieces the LF. Guardians push away and LF get chewed to pieces. It isn't just guadians that they dont work much for.

If you would like capitals to not be affected by push JJ, then thats fine with me. It just singles the caps out by pushing everything else away and letting them be focus fired without support easily. Yay for marza with no hoshis healing!!

One thing that has irked me a bit lately thats getting a bit more widespread in its use is the scout rush(thanks a bunch raging amish). It just annoys me that a scout is used as a primary fleet component and can win. I don't think it should be much of a counter against anything other than other scouts. As per their name, they are meant to scout and not to be spammed for offensive use. Its not a huge problem(yet) but it is annoying to see 50+ scouts from someone fighting battles. It can be countered of course but not without a lot of trouble. TEC are even worse because they can take out structures so quickly with timed explosives and devastate you early on. They can counter LRF in significant numbers and all you can do is build scouts and light frigates with flak or carriers if you can get them out. Ohhh well, enough bitching about it.

[_]-Greyfox

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Quoting Greyfox2,

reply 20

Quoting Deceiver_0, reply 19And lrf aren't supposed to hard counter support frigates. LF are and they cant get anywhere near those guardians. Maybe if there anti-anitmatter abilites had the same range as repulse, throwing a couple of light frigates in there would actually HELP against somethign that strong, whether it be disabling it for a brief time (kobalts) stealing their am and giving it to your ships(disciples) or making it cost additional AM and increasing the cooldown time (skirmishers). THe problems is they can't reach. I don't think boosting the range of those abilities to match that of repulse is too much to ask for. For any other race you can say "ok for those unoits I need these units to counter them and for those you need these" but currentlythe counters to repulse lie only with Vasari (the orkulus being immune to repulse, and bombers able to penetrate those thick shields) and their only soft counters, for the tec you just have to take it and hope you come out on top.

In regards to JJ's "super unit"

I suggest either giving each race a unit advantage

Each race does have at least 1 unit thats significantly more powerful than its counterparts, the difference is 1) lums are at least 3 times as strong as ships of the same type 2) lrms are such a dominant strategy. Illuminators start out at tier 3 with an ability its brothers have to research at tier 4, splash damage. It also has a much larger AOE than cluster bombs or charged strikes, removing the spreading out of your fleet as a viable counter. But it also has another ability on top of that, the illusions. The infocard says something to the effect that it makes the illuminator 40% less likely to take damage.

Also illuminators can take on a fleet of the vasari's generally stronger unit the skirmisher with no problem and is even a match for a fleet of the tecs generally stronger unit the kodiak.

This forces opponents fleets to diversify their fleet and add in support ships just to battle with an illum fleet and survive, while the illuminators can stand on their own, or with the help of only 1 other kind of ship (defense vessels or drones hosts), adding in support caps and heavy cruisers only serves as overkill. And I mean sure you can beat an illuminator spam, and even a battle ball, but it isn't easy, even against players with poorer skill than your own.

Just making a few points. Illums do not have any form of splash damage. They have sidebeams that damage 2 other ships if positioned right(more micro). They do no have an area effect of any kind. It should also be worth mentioning that illuminators do less damage per beam bank than any other LRF. Only 50% of illum damage is in the front and 25% on each side. So if you don't position yourself to let the advent take advantage of all beams then you gimp the damage to be done. The vasari skirmisher is a light frigate and SHOULD be countered by illuminators(I think you are refering to the skarovas enforcer which is the vasari HC). Illuminators against kodiaks with no repulsing guardians get torn to pieces even with much greater numbers of illuminators. Also have you ever tried to use LF against any other support cruiser? It doesnt work out well. Hoshis are generally smack in the middle of LRMs or kodiaks and LF get chewed to pieces. Subverters just disable and fleet just chews to pieces the LF. Guardians push away and LF get chewed to pieces. It isn't just guadians that they dont work much for.

If you would like capitals to not be affected by push JJ, then thats fine with me. It just singles the caps out by pushing everything else away and letting them be focus fired without support easily. Yay for marza with no hoshis healing!!

One thing that has irked me a bit lately thats getting a bit more widespread in its use is the scout rush(thanks a bunch raging amish). It just annoys me that a scout is used as a primary fleet component and can win. I don't think it should be much of a counter against anything other than other scouts. As per their name, they are meant to scout and not to be spammed for offensive use. Its not a huge problem(yet) but it is annoying to see 50+ scouts from someone fighting battles. It can be countered of course but not without a lot of trouble. TEC are even worse because they can take out structures so quickly with timed explosives and devastate you early on. They can counter LRF in significant numbers and all you can do is build scouts and light frigates with flak or carriers if you can get them out. Ohhh well, enough bitching about it.

[_]-Greyfox

I have proven this wrong. LUMS do most frontal damage!!!. 1 lum vs 1 assailant (full weapons upgrade. 8 of them) will still win. Lums are bugged!!

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/355453

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No Grey, I used splash damage as a comparison. My definition of splash is "damages more than 1 ship at a time". So with that yes illums do have splash damage. That being said, illuminators can attack multiple units in a larger spread than lrms and assailants, being able to splash their damage to more units. When firing cluster bombs, you won't do splash damage to a ship thats to the left or right, same with charged missiles, splash is dealt to other ships near the primary target, while illums do their "splash" damage to targets that don't have to be close to each other( not to mention you dont have to research it), and if they are then simply engaging the targets point blank will make up for the slight lack of forward firepower the illums have.

I did mean skirmishers too, as skirmishers are far stronger than disciples and kobalts. I was discussing them as super units, units a race has that are stronger than the same type of unit for other races. Illums are advents super unit and kodiaks are the TECs. My point was that the illum can certainly outmatch skirmishers and, if microed well, are a match for kodiaks, making the Advent super unit more powerful than the Vasari or TEC.(also adding in the popularity of lrm spam)

I think you just miss understood me.

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I think your test is broken jj.Illums damage is so low that mit doesnt rise whereas the kanrack raised mit.Its as simple as that.

I think a good change would be to nerf lrf to lf by about 15%.Just curious what people would think about that?

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