DRM problem with used copy » Forum Post by epiclulz

By demanding the other person to stop posting, are you not in fact trying to have the last word? By demanding the other person to stop arguing against you, are you not in fact trying to force your way into being right?

Since when did I ask anyone to stop posting or stop arguing?

You know someone has utterly lost when their only remaining line of defense is accusing the opposition of trolling (without any evidence, naturally) and demanding them to concede defeat and stop arguing.

Except of course, when the accusation is true

And who appointed you judge and jury to summarily dismiss the evidence that was provided?

But seriously, epiclulz, the points and comments you make have been repeated ad nauseum. Is this some kind of Turing Test? Do you have something new to say?

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We were not talking about energy sources for cars, we were talking about warning labels, and the poster simply assumed for the purposes of his argument that cars run on gas. Obviously there need not be a warning label on a car stating that it needs gas to work since everyone knows they need it, just like they know that a refridgerator requires electricity. It's such elementary and common knowledge that there's no need to mention it.

First, in the beginning of this thread, you talk about how CD keys are locked to Impulse accounts.

Then, you talk about SD's greed, and you said the original post is irrelevant already.

Now, you are talking about the need for Warning Labels.

OK, please don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to keep up with your topic OK? Please excuse me, I'm trying to keep up with you changings topics redefining which is your first/original post. So now it is Warning Labels - OK, got it.

And incidentally, where I live, it is the law that cars that run on CNG (compressed natural gas) must have special labels on the car.

This has all been explained over, over, over, over, over, over and over again. Is reading comprehension difficult for you, or did you just not bother to read the thread? Maybe you should take your own advice and use your fucking brain.

And other points like "This is StarDock/IronClad's policy currently - petition them directly if you disagree" have also been "explained over, over, over, over, over, over and over again. Is reading comprehension difficult for you, or did you just not bother to read the thread?"

And by the way, you can debate an issue without using the F word.

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What friend? People keep telling me about this mysterious friend I supposedly have, but I have no idea who he is. I don't know who previously owned the game, I bought it second hand from a store.

What store? People keep telling me about this mysterious store that sells second hand copies of SOASE, but I have no idea what store it is. I don't know what store it is, I'm still wondering where one can by it second hand from a store.

I wonder how many fucking times I've explained this already. Here it comes again: the store had no possible way of knowing about the game's DRM

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse. Get over it.

Quite right. In the eyes of the law, ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. For example, saying you didn't know that it was illegal to pirate a copy of Sins is not a valid defense in court.

So, it seem that Stardock is enough open minded to allow second hand product to have the same value that a new one... Simply need to ask it friendly and not begin make a 10 page rant...

Correct. I've mentioned to epiclulz many times over this thread to write to stardock directly with a real email addy and say some polite statement about this issue. But he/she insists on posting here, and not doing something concrete. See post #238 above.

OK, so that I understand you fully, can I take it you are doing absolutely nothing about this?

Again, where did I say I'm going to take action?

And, I would like to add that on this page 10 of this thread alone, epiclulz has used the F word five times. So, I wonder if it is possible for him/her to even write a politely worded email to SD in the first place.

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Good lucking proving it.

Good luck disproving it.

kruppe: your post adds notihng. Why bother?

Sometims the best thing to do is to

It's obvious that your posts don't add anything either.

It's obvious that yours don't either.

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This is fun! Maybe if we all keep this up, we can reach like post #500 or something! I know epiclulz won't stop, right? Kewl!

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Thier continued existence is based around helping the customers of thier company and to prevent expliotation of the company's product. Don't go crying a river if customer loss, product expliotation prevention is such a problem for you.

Second hand sales aren't product exploitation, they're second hand sales. The game industry is not special.

No you haven't but you have been carrying around what you think you are entitled to in your mind. I was hoping you to use that an an example to help explain to you that as a "second hand" customer, you have no entitlements and Stardock is not obligated to do anything for you.

This isn't about entitlement, this is about consumer rights.

How do you know that for sure?

Because it costs nothing to upload files. Even if they tried to enforce some fee-based system for publishers, it would be trivial to circumvent it (not that publishers would bother, since the fee would be equally trivial and certainly nothing compared to the costs of running an intricate online service like Impulse or Steam).

What artifical and arbitary restrictions????? You got what you paid for, quit crying about it.

The inability to patch SoaSE without registering a license key with Impulse is artificial and arbitrary.

Which games? I would like to know, just about every game I have played has required me to have a CD key at one point or another.

A CD-key which is not permanently associated with an online account that also happens to be the only source for updates.

I will make you repeat yourself as many times as I feel like. It will go to show you that no matter how many times you say it, it will never be true.

Are you talking about yourself now? You are not disproving anything I've said by merely repeating the same old flawed arguments have been refuted several times already.

What store? Whoever it may be, I would seriously doubt they would have both a license for sale and resale of the same product.

They don't need one because it's not against the law to sell used goods in here. Shrink-wrap EULAs aren't legally binding either, and once you buy a game it's your property.

Whoever sold you the game on the grounds it would work for you. He probably was acting like your friend then.

No, he was acting like a salesperson selling me a product.

Yes they would, if they legitimately do buisness they would have known. As a retailer is is thier job to know as much as they can about the product they are selling. It would be like a McDonalds not knowing that they used beef patties on thier hamburgers.

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse. Get over it.

Obviously McDonalds would know about their own products. Game stores do not sell their own products, and expecting them to be intimately familiar with the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of each and every PC game they sell is stupidity bordering on lunacy. And once again, if they had gone online to try to find out what kind of DRM SoaSE uses, they would have gotten the impression that it doesn't have any.

You got what you paid for (an actual working version of SINS). So why are you crying about it??????

I've explained my problems with the game a million times now, and if you still don't get it (after 10 pages) you must be mentally challenged.

If you should ba mad at anyone, it should be the retailer who sold you the game on false premise.

Oh gee, I sure haven't explained this one before!

We provide patches through that same, existing system because it is dramatically cheaper (both money and manpower-wise) than dealing with standalone installers.

Sure it is.

We're not stopping anyone from buying a used copy

Yes you are.

but as with many used products out there (in general--and as time goes on this will apply to software more and more), a used product is not going to give you the same value as a new one.

That's because you have arbitrarily and artificially lowered the value of SoaSE as a used product. You deliberately made that decision.

Since when did I ask anyone to stop posting or stop arguing?

In the post that I quoted.

Except of course, when the accusation is true

You would have to prove that it's true, which is impossible.

And who appointed you judge and jury to summarily dismiss the evidence that was provided?

What, you expect that anything you say should be automatically accepted as the truth? Your evidence sucked and I explained why it sucked.

First, in the beginning of this thread, you talk about how CD keys are locked to Impulse accounts.

Then, you talk about SD's greed, and you said the original post is irrelevant already.

Now, you are talking about the need for Warning Labels.

Yes, it's true: more than one subject or issue has been brought up during the course of this thread. I am sorry if you have trouble keeping up.

And other points like "This is StarDock/IronClad's policy currently - petition them directly if you disagree" have also been "explained over, over, over, over, over, over and over again. Is reading comprehension difficult for you, or did you just not bother to read the thread?"

Whether or not I choose to petition them directly is irrelevant and has no effect on whether or not my arguments are valid.

And by the way, you can debate an issue without using the F word.

If you cannot handle swearing I suggest you exit the Internet as soon as possible. And whatever you do, don't leave the house or open the television.

What store? People keep telling me about this mysterious store that sells second hand copies of SOASE, but I have no idea what store it is. I don't know what store it is, I'm still wondering where one can by it second hand from a store.

Again, what could you possibly do with this information?

Quite right. In the eyes of the law, ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. For example, saying you didn't know that it was illegal to pirate a copy of Sins is not a valid defense in court.

Going by your logic, ignorance wouldn't be a valid defense if the government, without telling a soul, decided that wearing a blue t-shirt on January 6 2009 is against the law.

And, I would like to add that on this page 10 of this thread alone, epiclulz has used the F word five times. So, I wonder if it is possible for him/her to even write a politely worded email to SD in the first place.

Oh noes, the F word.

Good luck disproving it.

The burden of proof is not on me.

It's obvious that yours don't either.

I started this thread and I have been actively contributing to it for over 10 pages.

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Incidentally, I just plugged 'Sins of a Solar Empire DRM' into Google and at least the first three articles to show up speak to the fact that a valid account linked to your CD key is required for patching.

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If you have the physical disk and call customer support you can get a CD key issued to you that will allow you to register the game. This happens because customer support can ask you for a number off of the CD and look up if that copy was ever sold, and then issue you a CD key... I have had to do it when registering games that tell me someone already registered that CD key... oh and with vista and office and various other micro crap products that limit the number of times you can install them, even if its on the same PC.

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but as with many used products out there (in general--and as time goes on this will apply to software more and more), a used product is not going to give you the same value as a new one.

That's because you have arbitrarily and artificially lowered the value of SoaSE as a used product. You deliberately made that decision.

So? It is SD/IC's product/software, so it is up to SD/IC to decide the terms/conditions of how the software can be used. Since when did SD/IC have to seek approval from you for them to act the way that they do? If you don't like it, well, frankly, that's too bad. Petition them directly and ask them to change their policies. There are many software companies with many different terms and conditions on the use of their software.

Since when did I ask anyone to stop posting or stop arguing?

In the post that I quoted.

No I didn't. Read it again, or do you have difficulty understanding what I wrote?

Yes, it's true: more than one subject or issue has been brought up during the course of this thread. I am sorry if you have trouble keeping up.

Over the last 10 pages, you kept accusing others of changing the topic, while you yourself have changed the topic several times. Like I said, you don't play fair.

Whether or not I choose to petition them directly is irrelevant and has no effect on whether or not my arguments are valid.

Whether or not your arguments are valid has no effect on whether or not SD/IC will do anything about it. And since you are clearly not interested in taking any action (as you say), so what is your purpose in "actively contributing to it (this thread) for over 10 pages"?

If you cannot handle swearing I suggest you exit the Internet as soon as possible. And whatever you do, don't leave the house or open the television.

Oh I can handle swearing. I can swear in languages other than English if you like. But I also know how to be polite - something which you clearly don't. Unless you mean that swearing is polite.

Going by your logic, ignorance wouldn't be a valid defense if the government, without telling a soul, decided that wearing a blue t-shirt on January 6 2009 is against the law.

Yes. Go ask a lawyer. "Oh, I'm sorry officer, you can't give me a ticket because I didn't know that the speed limit on this road is 30..." This is pretty much standard in every country around the world. Damn, you better go and complain on the legal forums!

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Going by your logic, ignorance wouldn't be a valid defense if the government, without telling a soul, decided that wearing a blue t-shirt on January 6 2009 is against the law.

There you go again dehumanizing an entity as a whole.

"The Goverment" would not do that anyways, so your arguement is invalid.

To ratitfy something into law take a long process involving congressmen, senators, the president and your local state and county courts. Ask anyone in California about "Prop 8".

To use ignorance as an excuse, you must first admit you are ignorant.

They don't need one because it's not against the law to sell used goods in here. Shrink-wrap EULAs aren't legally binding either, and once you buy a game it's your property.

It may not be against the law to sell used goods but they are not authorized in any way to sell licenses for the used games. If they tried Stardock could take legal action.

Game stores do not sell their own products, and expecting them to be intimately familiar with the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of each and every PC game they sell is stupidity bordering on lunacy.

So it stupidy to walk into an auto parts store and expect the staff on duty to have knowledge required to help me find a part?

Is it lunacy to walk into a petfood store with the expectation that someone may be able to hep you find the right pet care supplies?

No it is not and neither is expecting s SOFTWARE STORE employee to have enough training to help you make an informed purchase for SOFTWARE.

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse.

No, he was acting like a salesperson selling me a product.

So your letting a salesman sell you a product rather than make an informed purchase on your own?

This isn't about entitlement, this is about consumer rights.

Your consumer rights were not violated by Stardock in any way.

Your consumer rights are violated when you purchase goods that are defective and the vendor refuses to make ammends through refund or exchange.

What you feel is that your entitled to the same service as a firsthand purchase.

If you should ba mad at anyone, it should be the retailer who sold you the game on false premise.

Oh gee, I sure haven't explained this one before!

Change that,

The person you should be mad at is yourself.

Second hand sales aren't product exploitation, they're second hand sales. The game industry is not special.

Second hand sales may not be product expliotation in the true sense, be expecting free software updates and patches even tho you have not paid the publisher is.

I've explained my problems with the game a million times now, and if you still don't get it (after 10 pages) you must be mentally challenged.

Coming from the kid who has gotten the explaination "you got what you paid for" for over 10 pages and still doesn't get it.

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Incidentally, I just plugged 'Sins of a Solar Empire DRM' into Google and at least the first three articles to show up speak to the fact that a valid account linked to your CD key is required for patching.

I never saw anything like that.

So? It is SD/IC's product/software, so it is up to SD/IC to decide the terms/conditions of how the software can be used. Since when did SD/IC have to seek approval from you for them to act the way that they do?

He acted as if the value of SoaSE as a used product just automatically falls and they have nothing to do with it (like how a used car is less valuable because of wear and tear), which is not true.

No I didn't. Read it again, or do you have difficulty understanding what I wrote?

You posted:

Personally, I think it is a bit of a mental excercise to debate against someone who 1. always wants to have the last word, and 2. is always right.

You were clearly implying that I shouldn't try to have the last word (translation: I should stop posting) and that I shouldn't try to be right (translation: I should admit that you're right and immediately cease arguing).

Over the last 10 pages, you kept accusing others of changing the topic, while you yourself have changed the topic several times. Like I said, you don't play fair.

Where have I changed the topic, and what does it have to do with the quote you were replying to?

Whether or not your arguments are valid has no effect on whether or not SD/IC will do anything about it. And since you are clearly not interested in taking any action (as you say), so what is your purpose in "actively contributing to it (this thread) for over 10 pages"?

What does this have to do with what you're replying to? Again, whether or not I choose to petition them directly is irrelevant and has no effect on whether or not my arguments are valid.

Oh I can handle swearing. I can swear in languages other than English if you like. But I also know how to be polite - something which you clearly don't. Unless you mean that swearing is polite.

I'm not entirely sure what relevance politeness or the lack of it is supposed to have in the context of this thread.

Yes. Go ask a lawyer. "Oh, I'm sorry officer, you can't give me a ticket because I didn't know that the speed limit on this road is 30..." This is pretty much standard in every country around the world. Damn, you better go and complain on the legal forums!

Speed limits are shown on signs, and the law against speeding is known to the public (and I'm pretty sure they cover it in driving school). In my hypothetical example the government enacts a law without telling anyone about it, in which case it is impossible for anyone to be aware of it and thus ignorance becomes a valid legal defense. It is not reasonable to expect a citizen to be aware of a law that has not been made public. Likewise, it is not reasonable to expect a game store to be familiar with the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of each and every PC game they sell. It is also not reasonable to expect the consumer to have that knowledge.

There you go again dehumanizing an entity as a whole.

"The Goverment" would not do that anyways, so your arguement is invalid.

To ratitfy something into law take a long process involving congressmen, senators, the president and your local state and county courts. Ask anyone in California about "Prop 8".

This is all very irrelevant. I used a purely hypothetical example to demonstrate that ignorance can be an excuse. You're also not taking into account that I wasn't even specifically referring to any particular government (I'm sure North Korea could enact secret suprise laws if it wanted to).

To use ignorance as an excuse, you must first admit you are ignorant.

I freely admit to not knowing the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of every PC game ever made in the world.

It may not be against the law to sell used goods but they are not authorized in any way to sell licenses for the used games. If they tried Stardock could take legal action.

Again, shrink-wrap EULAs aren't legally binding and once you buy a game it's your property.

So it stupidy to walk into an auto parts store and expect the staff on duty to have knowledge required to help me find a part?

Is it lunacy to walk into a petfood store with the expectation that someone may be able to hep you find the right pet care supplies?

You are changing the subject. We are not talking about whether or not it's reasonable to expect a game store employee to help a customer find a specific game in the store. We are talking about whether or not it's reasonable to expect a game store employee to be essentially omniscient about the products he sells (the answer is no, by the way).

No it is not and neither is expecting s SOFTWARE STORE employee to have enough training to help you make an informed purchase for SOFTWARE.

Show me one game store where the employee can recite from memory the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of every single PC game they sell.

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse.

I have quite clearly demonstrated that it is.

So your letting a salesman sell you a product rather than make an informed purchase on your own?

Uh... what the fuck? Where did I say I didn't make the purchase on my own?

Your consumer rights were not violated by Stardock in any way.

Your consumer rights are violated when you purchase goods that are defective and the vendor refuses to make ammends through refund or exchange.

What you feel is that your entitled to the same service as a firsthand purchase.

There was no warning anywhere on the game's packaging that it's useless as a second hand product.

Change that,

The person you should be mad at is yourself.

Why? For not being omniscient?

Second hand sales may not be product expliotation in the true sense, be expecting free software updates and patches even tho you have not paid the publisher is.

Recently, I went to a file hosting site and accidentally downloaded the patch for Crysis when in fact I was supposed to download one for Crysis Warhead. I can't imagine the financial devastation my exploitation caused for EA (I don't own Crysis, you see). I also shudder to contemplate a scenario where person A stops playing SoaSE, sells the game to person B, and then person B downloads a patch. Could Stardock even survive that?

Coming from the kid

I don't remember mentioning my age here.

who has gotten the explaination "you got what you paid for" for over 10 pages and still doesn't get it.

It's not a valid explanation.

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STARVE THE TROLL!

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Quoting Cataclysm2000,

reply 18

I smell a communist

Actually I smell a pirate who likes to tell stories....

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

who has gotten the explaination "you got what you paid for" for over 10 pages and still doesn't get it.

It's not a valid explanation.

And we return to the opinion vs. fact arguement. And since the facts are (in this case) controlled by Stardock and Ironclad . . the case against it is moot again.

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Look, ma! Cujo is chasing his tail!

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STARVE THE TROLL!

Trolling accusations: the last refuge of the incompetent.

Actually I smell a pirate who likes to tell stories....

I had no idea that buying a used game now constitutes piracy.

And we return to the opinion vs. fact arguement. And since the facts are (in this case) controlled by Stardock and Ironclad . . the case against it is moot again.

Well shit, I guess we can pull the plug on Wikipedia and abolish libraries around the world, since Stardock and Ironclad now have all the facts. Do you call it the Ministry of Truth or does it have some other name? Also, on a scale of 1 to 10, how high are you right now?

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

-sigh-

There are instances when might *does* make right. If they own the system what they say is what it is. You can argue whether it is moral or not . . but in the end . . YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE.

As an unhappy consumer you have some choices:

Let the company know you are unhappy (which you may have done here). Emailing SD and IC would be better.
Return the product (which you say you have done)
Let the store you bought it from know you are unhappy (which you may have done)
Tell other users (which you have done . . but I think poorly . . to an audience that is biased against you because they admit that your premis is wrong)
??

What else is there to do? What is your purpose here now?

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Right now I'm debating againts people, as if that wasn't already plainly obvious.

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I never saw anything like that.

You should look further than the end of your nose.

I'm sure North Korea could enact secret suprise laws if it wanted to

They wouldn't.

You can't wipe your ass or blow your nose in a country with a goverment like China or North Korea and they make damn sure that you know that and understand the rules.

"Suprise laws" don't exist.

Obscure ones, yes suprise ones, no.

What does this have to do with what you're replying to? Again, whether or not I choose to petition them directly is irrelevant and has no effect on whether or not my arguments are valid.

You won't because you can't. If your arguements were then you would.

I freely admit to not knowing the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of every PC game ever made in the world.

Your going to have to do better than that.

You are changing the subject. We are not talking about whether or not it's reasonable to expect a game store employee to help a customer find a specific game in the store. We are talking about whether or not it's reasonable to expect a game store employee to be essentially omniscient about the products he sells (the answer is no, by the way).

I'm not changing the subject, there is no need for anyone to be omniscient. It is not unreasonable for a customer to expect the vendor to have the knowledge to sell thier product well. You made a bad decision and shopped at a bad store, DEAL WITH IT.

Show me one game store where the employee can recite from memory the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of every single PC game they sell.

Don't have to because they don't need to, all they have to need to know is if a game has DRM and or copy protection. They then can inform the customer who can take it into consideration. A 15 min training course would fix that for any new hires.

Besides you haven't even told us this magical store where you bought your used game.

This is all very irrelevant. I used a purely hypothetical example to demonstrate that ignorance can be an excuse.

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse. It may be a reason from time to time, but it never excuses you from your own mistakes.

I have quite clearly demonstrated that it is.

How? By making up little short stories that would never happen?

Uh... what the fuck? Where did I say I didn't make the purchase on my own?

You obviously didn't make an informed purchase, if you knew about it you wouldn't have, would you?

You let advertising and sales pitches that buying used is better to sell you on the idea.

There was no warning anywhere on the game's packaging that it's useless as a second hand product.

That would be the fault of the vendor.

I don't remember mentioning my age here.

Your largest concern is not getting "treated fair" by the "big greedy companies".

You also seem to lack any real world experiance.

You also wrong and don't seem to know it.

You blame someone else for your problem.

You expect someone else to fix your problem.

You named yourself "epiclulz".

Ahhhhh imaturity in its finest.

Why? For not being omniscient?

For not having common sense.

Again, shrink-wrap EULAs aren't legally binding and once you buy a game it's your property.

The CD is your property, the content is not.

Listen up epiclulz,

You got what you paid for, accept it and move on.

Go cry yourself a river for your little personal tragedy. Build yourself a bridge and get over it.

This one person rant will not change the fact that you made a mistake in purchasing a second hand good.

Purchasing second hand may not be illegal but it is never the best choice when it come to certian purchases. (SINS for example)

I would recomend that you read up on consumer protection rights and how they apply to you.

I would also recomend that you become more of an informed shopper before you decide to make purchases on a game(or anything for that matter). Read a review, check out and forums, read player submitted reviews or ask any real world peers if they would recomend a product for you. Good shopping starts with yourself.

I would recomend that you read the Monkeysphere (written by David Wong) it is a humor article but it really help you delve into your own mind and understand how your brain works and realise your own shortcommings as a human.

I would recomend that you read the 7 habits of highly effictive people (written by Stephen R. Covey) fantastic read.

I would recomend taking a small buisness course. Even if you never start a small buisness you will find skills that will help you alot in just about anything.

Hope it can help you out.

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Can I just make a few very interesting additions here.

First EpicLulz and is many opponents all have valid points and are unable to reach an agreement.

My Opinion is that StarDock are in no way required to provide their services for people who have not payed for the game to the original creators. StarDock are not preventing you from ownership and use of the game they are simply not offering you the services (hosting for the online servers and updates) that are gotten by a customer paying to them.

Now I would like to state a little information:

First I have been interested in games for a while. At the age of 9 my cousin who had brought me to computer games (15) bought a game and then got me a no-cd-crack for it so I could have it. From here onwards I was aware that in Ireland at least PC Games for this reason were NEVER available second hand. I have since then seen a few less valuable computer games second hand but never have I ever seen in any shop a second hand game with online capability.

Next I bring evidence to Crush you "Terms and Conditions argument". The two biggest Game retailers in the UK are "Game" and "HMV". They are next to each other on my high street and so I checked sins of a solar empire while down town this weekend. Both had a sticker informing me that by breaking the seal and opening the box I was agreeing to the Terms and Conditions available at the website. Said Terms and Conditions state that the Serials are non transferrable.

Bringing this to the table I would like to move that StarDock has not done anything out of the ordinary (Valve,EA dar I go on?) and has in fact been more lenient than some. They have also acted fully within the law and have in no way deceived the customer.

Now I believe I may not be the only one to say

End the Massive Quote lists!

Stop dredging up sentences from past quotes. Wipe the slate clean. Bear in mind what peoples arguments are and make your point but stop picking and nagging at each other and whining about trolling.

Now I believe the Points are:

Epic - StarDock are deceiving us (note evidence above) and are profit hungry (may have gone back on this) and they are stopping second hand sales (main point I believe when this started)

Everyone Else - Your a troll (note above) their nice (opinion) and they have no obligation to second hand (and here we go again)

The fact is your point about it not harming anyone sounds an aweful lot like "victimless crime" epic. This is the line used by people who download games and in the end a company like StarDock cant match in size or power EA and dont have a lot but consumer revenue going for them.

StarDock in my opinion have been very nice not protecting the single player portion of the game at all allowing it to be sold, given and whatever else freely. In return all they ask is that if they are providing someone the service of using their servers, putting pressure on their bandwidth and enjoying their work those people should pitch in to help cover the costs of said venture.

If you quote anyone above me I think I will garrote you by the way.

So please note what I have said about the direction of this thread before you post in response to my opinions and lets try and stay on topic.

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Right now I'm debating againts people, as if that wasn't already plainly obvious.

No your wallowing in your own one person "piss and moan" club.

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You should look further than the end of your nose.

Again, I saw nothing.

They wouldn't.

You can't wipe your ass or blow your nose in a country with a goverment like China or North Korea and they make damn sure that you know that and understand the rules.

"Suprise laws" don't exist.

Obscure ones, yes suprise ones, no.

Read the sentence again. I said they could if they wanted to.

You won't because you can't.

What is stopping me?

If your arguements were then you would.

This doesn't even make any sense.

Your going to have to do better than that.

Let me get this straight... you are saying I should be able to recite from memory the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of every PC game ever released? Is that right?

I'm not changing the subject, there is no need for anyone to be omniscient. It is not unreasonable for a customer to expect the vendor to have the knowledge to sell thier product well. You made a bad decision and shopped at a bad store, DEAL WITH IT.

It is utterly and 100% unreasonable to expect the salesperson to know the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of every PC game that exists.

Don't have to because they don't need to , all they have to need to know is if a game has DRM and or copy protection.

Virtually every PC game has those. Simply knowing that a game has a DRM or copy protection mechanism in place doesn't tell you anything about the nature of said DRM or copy protection mechanism. Likewise, knowing that a car has an engine doesn't tell you anything about what kind of an engine it is.

So I guess what you're now saying is that employees don't actually have to know anything at all, whereas previously you were demanding them to have inhuman levels of knowledge.

Besides you haven't even told us this magical store where you bought your used game.

Again, again and again: what could you possibly do with that information?

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse. It may be a reason from time to time, but it never excuses you from your own mistakes.

Again, in my hypothetical example it would clearly excuse someone from making a "mistake." Another example would be, say, a new company policy that the staff hasn't been properly made aware of. Happens all the time.

In my case it isn't about ignorance at all. SoaSE supposedly has no DRM at all (that's what everyone keeps saying, and that's what I kept hearing), and the DRM mechanism is not described anywhere on the game's packaging. There was no way for me to be aware of the DRM.

You obviously didn't make an informed purchase, if you knew about it you wouldn't have, would you?

Again, I had no way of knowing about the DRM.

You let advertising and sales pitches that buying used is better to sell you on the idea.

What advertising and sales pitches? There was no advertising and no sales pitches. I went to the used games section of the store, picked SoaSE and took it to the counter. Are you unable to tell the difference between reality and your own delusional fantasies? I have no idea where these stories are coming from.

That would be the fault of the vendor.

Going by that logic, it's also the vendor's responsibility to ensure that the system requirements on the game's packaging are accurate. What nonsense.

Your largest concern is not getting "treated fair" by the "big greedy companies".

Where did I say consumer rights are my largest concern in life?

You also seem to lack any real world experiance.

Based on what?

You also wrong and don't seem to know it.

I'm confused. Are you trying to prove that I am a kid, or are you trying to prove that you are a kid?

You blame someone else for your problem.

I have explained at length why it isn't my fault.

You expect someone else to fix your problem.

Well obviously, since it isn't my problem.

You named yourself "epiclulz".

And? What is that supposed to prove?

Conclusion: you're making shit up.

For not having common sense.

Common sense doesn't mean what you think it means. Common sense does not allow one to ascertain the precise nature of any given game's DRM/copy protection system. Perhaps you are confusing "common sense" with "supernatural powers of extrasensory perception."

The CD is your property, the content is not.

When I buy it becomes my property.

I would also recomend that you become more of an informed shopper before you decide to make purchases on a game(or anything for that matter).

Once again, the only thing a quick Google reveals is that the game has no DRM whatsoever. Furthermore, the nature of the game did not make it a likely possibility that it would have the kind of DRM that it does.

I would recomend that you read the Monkeysphere (written by David Wong) it is a humor article but it really help you delve into your own mind and understand how your brain works and realise your own shortcommings as a human.

I would recomend that you read the 7 habits of highly effictive people (written by Stephen R. Covey) fantastic read.

I would recomend taking a small buisness course. Even if you never start a small buisness you will find skills that will help you alot in just about anything.

Well, this certainly is pretty... random? I'm getting the feeling that you aren't "all there."

My Opinion is that StarDock are in no way required to provide their services for people who have not payed for the game to the original creators. StarDock are not preventing you from ownership and use of the game they are simply not offering you the services (hosting for the online servers and updates) that are gotten by a customer paying to them.

What difference does it make to them whether serial XYZ-1234 is owned by person A or person B? If ownership is transferred from A to B, the number of copies that they have to support does not increase at all, and if they offloaded most of their file hosting to third party providers like Fileplanet it wouldn't make any difference who downloads the patches. Stardock just wants to kill second hand sales because they're greedy. Of course they can't really admit it, so they just make up all kinds of bullshit justifications for it.

Next I bring evidence to Crush you "Terms and Conditions argument". The two biggest Game retailers in the UK are "Game" and "HMV". They are next to each other on my high street and so I checked sins of a solar empire while down town this weekend. Both had a sticker informing me that by breaking the seal and opening the box I was agreeing to the Terms and Conditions available at the website. Said Terms and Conditions state that the Serials are non transferrable.

Laws regarding EULAs differ from country to country. Where I live, a shrink-wrap EULA has no legal power.

Bringing this to the table I would like to move that StarDock has not done anything out of the ordinary (Valve,EA dar I go on?) and has in fact been more lenient than some.

What Stardock, EA (to some degree) and Valve are doing is thus far out of the ordinary.

They have also acted fully within the law and have in no way deceived the customer.

Not informing customers about the crippling DRM that the game has is deception.

The fact is your point about it not harming anyone sounds an aweful lot like "victimless crime" epic. This is the line used by people who download games and in the end a company like StarDock cant match in size or power EA and dont have a lot but consumer revenue going for them.

Once again, I bought a completely legal and official version of the game from a store. I did not download it or get it on a burned DVD from a shady market in a third world country.

No your wallowing in your own one person "piss and moan" club.

No, I'm pretty sure other people, such as you, have posted in this thread too.

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Quoting epiclulz,

reply 22

What difference does it make to them whether serial XYZ-1234 is owned by person A or person B? If ownership is transferred from A to B, the number of copies that they have to support does not increase at all, and if they offloaded most of their file hosting to third party providers like Fileplanet it wouldn't make any difference who downloads the patches. Stardock just wants to kill second hand sales because they're greedy. Of course they can't really admit it, so they just make up all kinds of bullshit justifications for it.

But Serial can be transferred.... it have already happen... and more... a guy here have post that he have proof to Stardock that he was the owner of the CD/DVD by given the nummer embedded on the disk inner ring... and miracle, he receive a new serial...

You have never seek a solution in these topic, only rant about Stardock... They transfer license if asked but sure, they will not reply to insult... They don't try to kill second hand sales ( if you was more friendly, sure that it will be 10 topic page ago that you will have receive your serial ), they're not greedy ( specialy when i compare price of sins to some other game )... Ohhhh, they are not perfect... I have too my share of complain, by example related to boxed release with different timing for each continent... but in these case, you are in the wrong...

More, in your numerous reply, you seem to ignore post who explain clearly that you have a license transfered... you only reply to thing that you can argue...

No that i think... do you work for Stardock ? So topic is in some way a promoting thing for then... Showing that they are really the good guys... Sure, you are not a troll, you work for them... Showing yourself like a idiot promote them... Nobody in real life can be so stupid that you show it there... Hey, Stardock, we have discover your role playing game... don't need to continue it, we already know that you are the best !!!

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You posted:
Personally, I think it is a bit of a mental excercise to debate against someone who 1. always wants to have the last word, and 2. is always right.

You were clearly implying that I shouldn't try to have the last word (translation: I should stop posting) and that I shouldn't try to be right (translation: I should admit that you're right and immediately cease arguing).

Geez, did I even mention your name? In fact, that post wasn't even targetted at you, it was a reply to Zubaz who talked about not feeding trolls. You have adamantly argued that you are not a troll, and yet when people talk about trolls, you say that they are actually talking about you. Geez, make up your mind, do you want to be a troll or not?

Over the last 10 pages, you kept accusing others of changing the topic, while you yourself have changed the topic several times. Like I said, you don't play fair.

Where have I changed the topic, and what does it have to do with the quote you were replying to?

Where did you change the topic redefine the meaning of "original post"? Read your own thread. I've said so many times. Locked keys to Impulse Accounts -> SD is greedy -> Warning Labels. You've done so twice.

Oh I can handle swearing. I can swear in languages other than English if you like. But I also know how to be polite - something which you clearly don't. Unless you mean that swearing is polite.

I'm not entirely sure what relevance politeness or the lack of it is supposed to have in the context of this thread.

Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, you would get a better reception to your ideas if you were be polite. Are you able to be polite?

Yes. Go ask a lawyer. "Oh, I'm sorry officer, you can't give me a ticket because I didn't know that the speed limit on this road is 30..." This is pretty much standard in every country around the world. Damn, you better go and complain on the legal forums!

Speed limits are shown on signs, and the law against speeding is known to the public (and I'm pretty sure they cover it in driving school). In my hypothetical example the government enacts a law without telling anyone about it, in which case it is impossible for anyone to be aware of it and thus ignorance becomes a valid legal defense. It is not reasonable to expect a citizen to be aware of a law that has not been made public. Likewise, it is not reasonable to expect a game store to be familiar with the precise DRM and copy protection mechanisms of each and every PC game they sell. It is also not reasonable to expect the consumer to have that knowledge.

Go check with a lawyer if you do not believe me. Governments cannot enact laws without telling people - that's what congress/parliament/etc are for.

"Florida Statutory Rape Laws - Ignorance Of Age Is Not A Legal Defense" - http://ezinearticles.com/?Florida-Statutory-Rape-Laws---Ignorance-Of-Age-Is-Not-A-Legal-Defense&id=1043248

"Ignorance of the Law is no Defense" - http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/ignorance_law.htm

"Ignorance of the Law is no Defense for CPAs" - http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2006/606/perspectives/p7.htm

Geez, go Google it for crying out loud.

Whether or not your arguments are valid has no effect on whether or not SD/IC will do anything about it. And since you are clearly not interested in taking any action (as you say), so what is your purpose in "actively contributing to it (this thread) for over 10 pages"?

What does this have to do with what you're replying to? Again, whether or not I choose to petition them directly is irrelevant and has no effect on whether or not my arguments are valid.

What else is there to do? What is your purpose here now?

Right now I'm debating againts people, as if that wasn't already plainly obvious.

All epiclulz is doing is debating the points. He has no real intention of doing anything or have any purpose here beyond that. But he's repeating his points over and over again, as if repeating it 100 times will allow him to win this debate, and when he runs out of room, he goes off and starts new angles of discussion/topics/etc.

Like I said, if we keep this up (and clearly ecpiclulz will), we can challenge Danman's 7 Deadly Sins for more posts in a single thread. Let's go for it! Maybe if there are more topic changes redefinitions of "original post", the mods may need to move this thread to the Off Topic Chat area?

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Hey Danman! You're going down!

So, umm... how about those Knicks?

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