Joe, I can't disagree with you. Your observations and conclusions are probably correct.

For the record, I'm not a conservative, liberal, or any standardized classification. Nor am I Republican, Democrat, or "Independent." I just don't care. I think I'll vote for Bugs Bunny in 2008.

But Joe, I have to ask...why do you care? I mean, why would anyone truly care about an asinine president moving his military pawns around, making oil deals, bombing the hell out of dictators, and lying every step of the way. What purpose is there in obsessive preoccupation with politics?

Someone might be inclined to reply, "But cosmic retard, thousands of our soldiers lost their lives, and tens of thousands of Saddam's dissidents and insurgents lost their lives!" <---they are all career soldiers - who cares?

Someone else might say, "But cosmic retard, innocent Iraqi citizens were killed during the bombing and were just considered collateral damage! Bush is bad!" <---Yet, you fail to realize Saddam killed nearly 1,000,000 people in the region before he was deposed. A little collateral damage is nothing compared to Saddam's Blood-Bathist Regime.

But still - gruesome, grizzly crimes happen every day that you're unaware of. There is probably the golden nugget "cause" every activist dreams of unearthing. There are atrocities occurring every day which slip by the radar undetected. What's worse is the ones people know about and yet their interest is only piqued if it satisfies their political agenda.

The very people who accuse Bush of ignoring the Sudanese and Nigerian genocide are also ignoring it. They only mention it because its more ammo against Bush. They have no desire to save the Sudanese and Nigerians from ruthless Islamo-facist slaughter. It's just a cute argument against Bush.

Should I care about things that I don't know about? I know that sounds strange. But think about it. If events transpire without your knowledge, it's like a "tree falling in the woods." It might as well never have happened. I would venture to say there are countless genocidal crimes you'll never know about. They've been separated from you by time and space. The Battle of Carthage was far worse than anything Bush did, but the ethics are never discussed, nor is the carnage. This is because it was long ago and far away.

Should someone make a poster board sign and demonstrate for the ravaged Carthaginians, and someone needs to answer, and pay for these crimes against humanity? As daft as it sounds, there must be an assumed statute of limitations. How many years must pass before a genocidal atrocity is just another page in a history book (provided it was recorded)?

Since I'm separated by both time and space from the suffering Carthaginians, perhaps it isn't for me to worry about. Why should I care about the poor Carthaginians? Why aren't you concerned?

To be quite honest, I don't have the energy to busy myself with foreign affairs. Maybe if I were a career solider, I would feel more inclined to go kick some Sudanese butt. But I'm just a computer programmer.

I care because in my job I work for both left leaning and right leaning groups. When I photograph, I have to bite my tongue (sometimes hard)as the nuts on both sides go on and on an on and on. I CAN'T respond. So I have all this pent up AAGGGGHHHHH stuck inside of me I've been wanting to vent for some time.

I think it's important on so many levels. A government not being watched and criticized is a government to do carte blanch whatever they want. And, despite what you write, you've chimed in with some great comments in this thread. So, obviously, if we look at your actions and not your words (something I'm forced to do in my job), you do care.

I actually am an ancient history buff. I have trips planned to Athens and Egypt this coming year. I think it's human nature to want to know where we've been and use that knowledge to predict the future. When we see past mistakes being repeated, an alarm sounds deep within.

Peace!
M

Send chills down my spine as well...the thought that troops on the ground would be spread so thinly leads me to believe that if Bush declared war on Iran, it would predominantly be an aerial assault to begin with...blanket/cluster bombing 24-7 for weeks on end, and anyone with half a heart/conscience would agree that the collateral damage/loss of human life from that would be unacceptably horrific.

That was the method in the early stages of the Iraq invasion...B52's blanket bombing the crap out of Republican Guard positions, along with anything/everything else nearby or got in the way. To date I still have not seen any kind of satisfactory account as to the fate of those 100,000 plus Iraqi Republican Guards beneath that unseen death raining down upon them. While it may show some respect for the enemy's ability, it shows absolutely no respect for life and/or limb and is no more than an act of brazen cowardice. Had the boot been on the other foot, that's exactly what US troops and politicians no doubt would have called it.



The over-stretching thing is why I say it'll be open slather blanket bombing if the US declares was on Iran. Again, nothing to be proud of, with more wholesale/indiscriminate killing on a mass scale to completely knock the stuffing out of a technically inferior foe.



Not all intellectuals get/were taught crap in liberal ass universities. Jesus Christ was an intellectual, and he taught the opposite of violent greed and aggression. In fact, like so many other true pacifists throughout history, Christ was persecuted, oppressed and eventually murdered for his non-aggression/pacifist beliefs: so yeah, despite huge steps in science and technology, we have only progressed very minimally in the 2000+ years since. It's not that history's lessons have been lost, it's more that people choose to ignore them unless they're profitable and represent the opposite of what they'd rather do.

Actually, Bush needs the kind of thrashing our (no longer PM) lil Johnny got, and to be replaced by a penguin. Yeah, I know, you shouldn't mix politics and religion, but a nun in the Oval Office might'nt be such a bad idea....one like wot took to John Belushi in the Blues Brothers for cussing. She'd be tough enough to get out the black-board ruler for those pollies who get out of line with war speak, yet good and kind hearted enough to look out for those who need help. Where's Julie(Sound of Music) Andrews when you need her?

It's those facts I thought didn't get a lot of discussion. Unfortunately, this thread has diverted onto everything from SH was a bad man to racist rants about who knows what. My ADD kicks in and I stop reading. It just kicked in now!

Yah. S'what always happens. Hence the joke. Not always thrilled about the execution of the war myself. But having seen what happens when Americans pull out of even one area of Iraq for periods of months, leaving the country is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. Bad.

Worst president in history though? Come on. Andrew Jackson has him beat blindfolded. I mean he did actual ethnic cleansing for crying out loud. Our how about hoover? He turned loose armor and calvary on our nations vets in the stinking nation's capitol, killing their wives and children. And of course many of the most revered presidents were the most reviled in their day. Of course you have Lincoln, FDR, my grandmother thought that JFK was an abomination (she may have been right, but damn it he looked good), take your pick. Hamilton was nailed for everything from the US bank idea to his very public (thanks to Jefferson's buds) affair, and the insider trading that he used to pay her husband for it. Twenty years from now Bush may look very good in retrospect. He is certainly not the worst president, any more than than Clinton was the antichrist during the years I squirmed under the heel of his pathetic leadership. Jimmy Carter, now there was a bad president. Fair diplomat, decent carpenter, lousy president.

History shows the persians (now this area) fighting the Greeks in, what 600 bc? The Egyptians off and on until the fall of the Egyptian empire with Cleopatra? THAT WAS 2000 years ago. Solutions to this area aren't gonna happen over night, or with the invasion of one nation. Solutions to this area may never happen. We need fresh ideas, approaches, and perspective. Despite my criticism, I give Bush credit for trying something -- at a staggering cost and perhaps stupidly -- a frustrated response? -- but he does deserve some credit for nerve. That and $2 will get you coffee at starbucks (a small).

Persia was a huge empire, Persia, that included parts of what are now Iran and Afghanistan. It's peak was about 500BC. It was the center of an empire that stretched west to the central Mediterranean Sea, east to India, and from the Gulf of Oman in the southern Russia in the north.

They were allies and enemies, off and on, with the Egyptians for 1,000 years before the birth of Christ. It's a popular misconception that Exodus occurred during Ramesses II, what? 10th century BC? My point is this: These conflicts have been going on for 3,000 years. Think about that compared to our own history. 3,000 years! More than 100X longer than the period between our Revolutionary war and now.

We are only a blip in history when you think this way. Kinda puts things in perspective. Are we writing the future hieroglyphs?

No,persia was before Iran, Iran came from Persia. But, I don't see the difference. My point is turmoil has been going on in the region for 3000 years, and will likely continue. We are a blip on the radar. Hard to think of ourselves that way.

no i agree with you. but as i said we are the oldest republic every

OK, I know this thread has gone from Bush, to Persia, to Israel to ...geezo peazo. But I really want 200 responses. So, someone come up with more. Who wants to Hillary bash????

I am extremely amused. Many are putting up other countries that the US should have intervened or the Coalition should have intervened. Hit Rewind! Everyone was bleating about Kurds and Shia being gassed and murdered in Iraq. Everyone was bleating about Saddam not complying with the Sixteen resolutions he was in defiance of for twelve years. Intervention was made. Saddam was knocked off his perch. And the great human knocking machine started. Civilians need to get some points through their concrete like minds. People die in interventions. Troops die. And civilians will always get caught in the crossfire when the enemy insists on hiding behind them or insists on wearing civilian clothing. Terrorists currently want ALL other faiths other than theirs dead. They are not interested in talking. On a battle field if anything moves it gets shot at....why?....he who hesitates dies of lead poisoning. If you want intervention then grasp the realities and quit whining when someone dies. It is going to happen. It is a given. Yes it is sad, yes it is painful, yes it would be nice if they could count up to ten and start playing war again. Problem is real war is no game and sometimes in order to achieve good for the majority and for the greater good some people need to die.

All I see is a bunch of people complaining about Bush.

Why don't I see anyone doing anything about the problems?

Complaining is easy. Take up a cause. Get involved.

Till then all you are is being part of the problem.

Be part of the solution.

hamilton was never president