I knew this topic was gonna get ugly

stress what did you expect? they repeated the same things over, I repeated the same things over from as many different angles as I could TRYING to make them understand, and then Kosc posted a picture of the pope.

the good, the bad and the ugly.

I'm guessing you dont know that because you're a MD...
case in point, you take it, I dont.


for all of you STILL struggling with the concept of the Vasari, this is how you play them:

NOT this:

or you'll end up like this:

mkay? class dismissed.

So how do you get this
WWW Link

combined with your superior tactics into this


So without actual prof, your just

Schod,

The Vasari have been a spacefaring and planet conquering race for a lot longer than the TEC according to the Lore.

The TEC are listed as "primitive" with little experience in military technology compared to the Vasari.

As such I think it's perfectly acceptable to expect that the Vasari will vastly crush any TEC ship 1 vs 1.

The key to balancing their superior technology is that they are only an "exodus fleet". They're just a break-off group of a once-mighty empire, on the run from an unknown enemy.

They only have 100 years in each location before they have to flee again. So they should likely suffer penalties to their mining and income to represent that they never have time to fully develop those systems before having to pack up and move.

Their ships should cost more, and they should take up more fleet capacity. Thus you have a true representation of what myself and many others see in the Lore of the game.

A technologically superior race that is on the run and has small numbers. They rely on their warfare focus and advantages to hopefully defeat the TEC, who have reigned in their area of the galaxy for quite some time and thus possess the resources and infrastructure to outproduce the Vasari, but still have much weaker technologies.

The TEC should have technologies that focus more on resource accumulation, building production and reduction in costs, etc. While the Vasari should have techs that focus on making their ships more powerful, faster, more resistant to damage, etc.

It should take many TEC units to take down a Vasari unit. And the Vasari units should be more unique in their abilities and functions. Less selection of unit types/roles, but more combined.

An example would be that a Vasari cap ship could have the ability to act as a carrier and also provide support logistics type assistance to other fleet vessels. So perhaps scale down the available ships to the Vasari so they have 3 cap ship choices, but each one is more functional and powerful than any single TEC cap ship.

In the end, the fact of the matter, based on the Lore, is that if the Vasari were coming as a united Empire that wasn't on the run from an unknown enemy, they would easily subjugate the TEC populations.

Glad to help Multianna. From what I've read from many other posters, it appears the majority agree with our point of view, rather than Schods. He's just trying to be overly vocal about his side to drown us out (and he continually insults other posters as well, challenging their intelligence, etc.)


As paying customers we should certainly be heard by the devs, as should Schod. But I honestly believe that:

-the tech tree for the Vasari & TEC

-The special abilities of the Vasari & TEC

Do NOT match at all with the majority of players expectations from each race, and actually make little sense. The TEC have way too many weapons-focused abilities and technologies compared with their "trader" and "primitive" designation in the Lore.

The Vasari do not have enough abilities based on their "ancient" conquering empire lore.


And slapping different skins/models on the ships and then saying one shoots "lasers" and the other "pulse guns" or whatever does not make diversity in this game. I still don't get a feeling that I'm playing a different race when I choose one over the other. They both still feel very similar.

Yes, we know Schod, "phasegates". But aside from that, the buildings and ship classes and roles are just too similar to make the game experience anything unique. It makes the game much more bland and reduces my confidence in the developers and their future games that I might have purchased had this one turned out correctly.   

you guys are pulling lore out of thin air, ignoring the parts relevant to my argument, twisting their words to make them fit like a glove to yours, and flipping out when I say that there are multiple meanings to "advanced"

yeah, you're being childish.

thanks, and how is it wrong?

I'm not saying there isnt hope for her point of view, but it certainly isnt healthy when they're relying on 1/3 of what the lore says, their own preconcieved notions and nothing else...

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the lore and I am partly to blame because I took some artistic license to write the introduction of the Vasari in the press release as if I was the Vasari first arriving. However, in the game it's actually been 10 years of warfare with the TEC since that time (see the lore link above for a read on the details). When the Vasari first arrived the Traders were primitive in comparison and they took heavy losses. Now, 10 years later, the TEC have adapted and are holding their own (atleast on the Vasari front). This has forced the Vasari to settle somewhat and dig in despite the fact they know they don't have much time. The Vasari's primary advances that are still out of reach of the TEC are in phase space, gravity and nanotechnology. All of this is adhered to in their ships, technologies and play styles.

I will also say that the abilities and research subjects of the Vasari do make them play substantilly different than the TEC even though they share the same core macro mechanics and role types. This is an intentional design decision and not a cop out. It has taken years to create the unique functionality of each race's abilities and research topics. Our intention was that the core mechanics would be easy to pick up and transferable between the races but the specific details of the more advanced stuff would be completely unique. The classic 'easy to pick up, difficult to master' mantra comes to mind. I think part of the problem is the Vasari do start somewhat similiar to the TEC but as you unlock their abilities they diverge quite a bit.

Nonetheless, we hear what people are saying and we have a flexible and powerful data driven engine that we can use to change things to improve the differentiation in a very short amount of time. Speaking as myself and not an Ironclad rep, I am in favor of making some of the unique elements of the Vasari available earlier to make the differences noticeable sooner and I'd like to exagerate the power and unit count differentiation a bit more. Fewer units, but more powerful for the Vasari. More units, less powerful for the TEC. Oh and yes, phase missiles definately need some tweaking

Fewer units, but more powerful for the Vasari. More units, less powerful for the TEC.

So schod, what would you call this race? Starts with a P. Common, say it!

Well, if anything this thread did do some good.

@blair: well, lets wait and see, those changes just might suffice to achieve what I would like to see. although at least one or two elements changed from the base formular would be nice.