Marcus, near death experiences suggest that God does indeed exist. To prove that God doesn't exist, you would need to know everything about everything. So, yes, the burdon of proof is on us to prove that God exists. Ok, have you looked into near death expeiences? They show that God does exist, and that eternal damnation does not. 300 years ago, we couldn't see atoms or prove they existed. We know now that atoms exist. Now, we can't see, hear, or smell God, etc. So why does that imply he doesn't exist?

Read up on near death expericences before you judge. I have been to Christian churches all my life before I made the decision that eternal damnation can't be real.

Explain your idea of "leaving the body to become one with the universe again". Do you believe that we could then reincarnate into a new body from this universal energy?

At any rate, there are people who have experienced near death experiences that go far beyond the simplicity you report. Some only report seeing what you describe, but not all.

Some of these near death experiences are more real and coherent to experiencers than real life is. If your brain is dying from lack of oxygen, why would you experience a state of consciousness that seems more real than real life itself and not like a massive acid trip where you see all kinds of dragons in the air, etc. When you take drugs that mess up your brain, your brain becomes very distorted and less coherent.

I agree that nothing is proved by these experiences. Afterall, to use the burden of proof demanded by many aethiests, you can't prove that gravity is real, atoms are real, etc. Maybe gravity and atoms are illusions of our mind and not real.

Stanley, you are pointing out the flaws with the simplest version of Christianity. You notice all the contradictions and downright silliness, and you're completely correct. That doesn't mean Christianity is stupid; just that the for-the-masses version has huge holes in it.

There are solutions to the problems that you are bringing up. They vary from denomination to denomination. I'm certainly no expert, so I won't try to enumerate, but Wikipedia is a good starting point for deeper explanations. Try looking up "problem of evil" or "problem of hell."

My history is mainly in Eastern Orthodoxy, so I can give you a Coles Notes version of their basic beliefs as I understand them. According to Eastern Orthodox Christianity:

- Heaven and hell are not physical places. It's not white fluffy clouds and pits of fire. They are simply states of your soul after you die.

- God created people with free will. That is, he allows people to choose to do things he doesn't want them to do. He doesn't love you any less for doing it; he's just disappointed when you do. He wants you to live forever in a state of happiness, but He feels (for whatever reason) that you need to choose this happiness for yourself.

- Hell is not a punishment. It doesn't contain fire or anything like that. It's simply the state of not being one with God. It's what happens when you die without being close to God (i.e. having sin in your soul). God doesn't "send" you there, just like he doesn't "send" you to Heaven. You get there yourself, of your own accord.

- You CAN be saved after going to Hell. Hell is temporary. On Judgement day souls will be judged to determine whether they can be one with God ("be saved"). A soul in Hell that had somehow found God between death and judgement day would be saved.

The basic idea is that God doesn't choose to interfere in your determination of whether or not to be saved. The intended state of a person's soul is to be without sin, and if you are in that state when the world ends then you will return to God ("Heaven"). If you are not in that state, then you can't be one with God because you have chosen to set yourself apart from Him ("Hell").

my belief is slightly more involved

1 there is heaven. this is where the angels live. and the future gods will live. no i only believe in one god. he will always be the only god for me.


2 there is a lower kingdom. this is where Christ will rule. this is also the earth. most people will go here.

3 there is a third kingdom. this is where the so called evil people go. this is the realm of the holy ghost. according to what i have read in our scriptures(not the bible), Christ said that if you saw this city. you would kill yourself to get there. of course if you killed yourself this is where you would end up.

4 there is outer darkness. this is where the devil and his demons and anyone who has totally disclaimed god as god. not the agnostics and people who don't believe in god. but people like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam. these eventually dissolve(i am using this word for want of a better one) back into the universe. because they will be cut off completely from gods love.

The last couple of posts have been reasonable, and somewhat more 'logical' in some respects.

If Hell is not a place of punishment, but a place that is not with God, then to me, that sounds quite nice. After all, it's not different to my life now. Yet, the problem comes when the ideas of Christianity are being taught as " Do this and you burn, don't do it, be rewarded " etc.
Faith is being spread largely through the carrot and the stick method.
I trained my Dog in much the same way.. she went to the toilet in the house, i'd punish her, she went outside, or asked to go out, she got rewarded. She hasn't dirtied my house in 8 years or so.

Simple analogy, but it's accurate I believe.

I've said in another post before, but Richard Dawkins book was a real eye opener to me, I was atheist before, but after reading it, I do everything to push all faiths away.
I live in Wales, and we were the most religious nation on earth a century ago, now we are the most anti religious on the planet. Their are a number of reasons for this, but my point is that I'm not unique in Wales. However, we still have clear signs of faith. My University was governed by the Dicoese of Saint Davids, and as such, it was classed as a Christian instution. However, it never interfered with a students lifestyle, be they one night stands, homosexuality, Muslim, Jewish, Hindi students etc.

In the grad ceremony, it was expected that everyone be blessed by the bishop.. I asked not to be, my friend asked after me, and out of 15 archaeology students, only 1 choose to be blessed. By my estimate, out of 150 students, maybe 25 or so took the blessing. I felt sorry for the Bishop, until I considered that he thinks all those not getting the blessing will suffer later on.

My moral choices are not made to gain a reward, or because some greater power expects it of me, but because it is right. My morals are not judeo Christian, any more than democracy and fair play is a sign of Being British.. their traits common to many people. Most if not all of these morals exist in other faiths... though stonign people to death for petty crimes, could only be inflicted by a religious nut.

What have you got against God?

In my opinion, those who fear God are those who do not yet know him.



If you are referring to "The God Delusion", I will comment that I am currently reading that on e-book; it's interesting, but it doesn't seem like he's being really insightful so far, he's just bringing together every anti-religion argument I've seen, and added some ranting.



That's the way it should be.

i think it was christ but it might have been moses. who said that evil cannot exist in the presence of god.


this is my belief but in the simpsons. flanders will not make to heaven any more than homer. becouse he does what he does with the idea of gaining reward.

my belief is you should do good for good. not for reward of going to heaven.

Please, Be Clear, very very clear - My comment is not (once again - "is not") directed at the individual who offered this little gem, I have heard it intoned many times.

To me it exemplifies the arrogance evident in many parts of the ruling hierarchy of many Christian Faiths. It shouts loud and clear that we the masses should not worry our pretty little heads over mere detail, we should follow the example of those more knowledgeable and who have the gift of understanding handed down from He who we love yaddie yadda. The incomplete explanation - holes and all - is there so you can be guided along a complex road ..... that we the chosen ones will aid you with.

Not with this pretty little head you wont.

This is not the Middle Ages, in general people have more common sense than that. I am a flexible individual, I will always make my mind up on the balance of evidence, a gut feeling based on facts presented, opinions offered, theories expanded upon, etc. Not be "guided" by some self seeking claptrap that offers no additional opinion or views other than to say it doesn’t matter because we will show you the way anyway. I am supremely glad that these individuals do not occupy the position of Judges in our Courts of Law.

Despite my obvious disagreement in the existence of a Supreme Deity, I strongly believe in the way of life offered by many Faiths, they do provide a framework for what I believe to be a decent balanced way of living. But that’s as far as it goes, and as long as the obvious holes are evident in the higher Theological explanations, then I will remain a non believer in a Supreme Deity. No amount of papering over the cracks with supposition, myths and theories will ever make me change my mind - and it is a very open mind, despite many not liking its conclusion - the latter is their problem not mine.

If individuals need a Faith as a belief, a more intense way of life, a mental prop, whatever, that’s fine, more power to their elbow - whatever gives individuals peace of mind and inner strength is for the most part a good thing. I will fight - and have done - for the right of individuals to take up whatever belief they wish, whatever gives them that inner peace. I will also fight those who seem to insist on "converting" me for my own salvation etc. I have slammed the front door on the foot of many a Jehovah’s Witness representative (after politely listening to their pitch for a few minutes) because they refused to remove it from the doorway.

The "For the Masses" version no longer works, this is not the uneducated Middle Ages. The refusal of the various Faiths' ruling hierarchies to understand that development in their "flocks" is the root cause of the severe decline in the number of practicing Christians.

The theory is wonderful, the prospect enticing, but the explanation and logic offered is inadequate to the point of not providing the - evidence, justification - call it what you will - that the theory is indeed reality. If the offered explanation fits what an individual wants to hear, and gives them strength to live a mortal life without fear, great, but not everyone wants or needs that prop just because someone says its there.

We all have our standards, qualities by which we judge things, they are different from individual to individual, at present those "obvious holes" they speak of are still holes to me, and until someone fills them in a way I can believe and accept, this is one pretty little head that wont be follow the "True Way".

Regards
Zy

to get to heaven just follow jesus example...........

and qualify by being nailed to a cross for a few days, ensure your last moments on Earth are in excruitiating agony, and inform passers by that I am doing it for them.

A kind of flippant response I agree, but am equally sure you will understand where I am coming from.

Regards
Zy

I'm sorry, but is it any wonder that I cant take this seriously....

Why I continue to search - fruitlessly - in such discussions amongst - what in all other circumstances - are sane logical individuals.

The year is 2007, not 1307, competition for the most esoteric and profound sounding statement does not cut it with "The Masses" any more. It worked in 1307 because there was automatic faith in semi or fully educated individuals, particularly if they aided others in other ways.

In 2007 people understand the pitfalls of taking for granted what others say in such important matters. They want facts, evidence, anything that substantiates the claims. The only thing that is ever offered is more profound statements, and even more unlikely escoteric theories.

Regards
Zy

it was the semi or fully educated individuals that hung him on the cross

I understand that your comments were not directed at me, so rest assured that I don't take any personal offense.

I don't believe that the basic version of Christianity is intentionally taught for unscrupulous purposes. I'd like nothing better than to have everyone - every single person - understand all the subtle complexities of Christian theology. But the reality is that most people just don't care very much about philosophical or theological details.

As an example, consider evolution. Many (most?) people believe in evolution in some form or another. However, most people have an extremely simplistic notion of evolution (i.e. random mutation leads to physical differences that give advantages, they are passed on through natural selection, etc.). This version of evolution is easily seen to be incomplete. How did complex mechanisms, like the eye, develop? How would a single genetic variation become dominant so quickly, before it is randomly eliminated?

The "real" theory of evolution, as understood by the elite few experts in the subject, has a lot more to it. I know a few people who have studied genetics and computational biology, and the story of evolution is far, far more involved. It has a lot to do with details of genetics, which illustrate how large changes can occur and become dominant very quickly (I'm no expert, so I won't attempt to say more on the subject). Theory of the atom? Same thing. Theory of the Big Bang? Same thing. There are popular culture versions of all big scientific theories, and they're all pretty bogus.

Does this mean that the scientific community is intentionally spreading lies to perpetuate myths and undermine the spread of religion? pfft, no. It's just that all the details cannot be communicated effectively. How would you teach them in school? Not to mention the fact that very few people care. People don't want to understand all the complexities, they just want a simple model of reality that they can apply to their everyday world. Those few who actually want more information are free to get it, there is no conspiracy to hide anything.

Christianity is the same way. All the details are out there for those who are interested.