Where do you think the people who join the military come from? Most of the military believe in gun ownership. You can throw out anything ya want... But your idea sounds like your afraid that kids will die and in life death happens... we should not "baby" prof life, that would mean no one really lives. Still individuals not society are the ones who have children and individuals must still want to have BIOLOGICAL children for this way of life and species to survive.

Basicly I want to preserve the right for people to be disappionted that their children are gay. People should be allowed to want THEIR genes to be passed on. Sorry but the way the opposition makes it sound this view should be history and maybe even criminal.
I don t think that is "bad" to be gay its just "bad" for having biological children.

He was an ex KGB commander.I don't want to go into that but just so you know.
As for Bush and Jong IL they are more a threat to their own country.

okay, first, biological kids. gay couples have biological children. only about 15% of gay men, uh, sire their own kids, but over 85% of lesbian couples have at least one parent with a genetic connection to their child. also among lesbian women, it's not uncommon (among couples who can afford it) for one woman to provide the egg and the other woman to carry the child; whether or not you consider surrogate mothering a 'biological connection' is another issue, but i don't think you'll convince anyone that a biological surrogate who wants to raise the child she's carrying won't feel the deepest of connections. in fact, i think you'll have trouble convincing many adopting parents that their connection to their child is any less strong than that of a biological parent.

also, we're rapidly approaching the point where we can swap the genetic material in an egg with material from an X sperm, which would mean two genetic fathers.

now, on to a parent's right to be disappointed their child is gay. first, i don't think anyone's capable of taking away your right to feel what you do.

secondly, from what i understand the relatively infrequent gay parents who have gay kids are also disappointed. for starters, it's not easy being gay. even if a lot of the explicit and institutional forms of homophobia are starting to go away (with the glaring exception of gays in the military, of which there are indeed many), even if that all went away, you're still encountered with constant steretyping (including from other gays). also, i think gay parents don't want to perpetuate the myth that "being gay is something you learn", etc.

it seems like you want laws that reflect your cultural sensibilites. you don't want people to look down on you (or someone like you) for being disappointed they had a gay child. i think "being PC" has gone way overboard in the U.S., and usually masks deeper prejudices behind a mask of 80s-style, "i'm okay, you're okay" rhetoric. you can't change what you feel, you can only chance what you do. if you or anyone feels disappointed at having a gay child, i wouldn't condemn you for that. i'd condemn you for trying to turn your child straight, kicking them out, or in any way mistreating them for being who they are. but your feeling are what they are. i think if you can show parental love to a gay child despite your initial disappointment, it's a very high testement to your character.

finally, i wish i hasn't mentioned gun control. my opinion is that your average joe shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, but it's a topic that doesn't even interest me all that much, so i'll leave the discussion to others.

I didnt say take away kids or make laws that they can t sire kids. But I don t think they should get as you say EQUAL say in which kids they adopt. Right now they foster kids and thats great but there is a waiting list for certain kids, like most babies.



Nor did I say that.



My father is adopted, and my Grand parents on my mom s side are really my great aunt and uncle I feel that they are all my grand parents.



ohh something that will be cost prohibitive! Thats cool as long as I don t have to pay for it!



Yeah there's alot of myths out there against gays. But there is also myths for gays... like gay men are better at emotional stuff then straight men, or the ones that make old cultures look like that they considered gays EQUAL to those that reproduced. Even ancient Greek cultures which had homosexuality (though I d argue that it was really bi-sexuality) as part of their society they still were supposed to take on a woman. If you can tell me of culture that gave its homosexuals real equal rights I d love to read about it.



Yes, and you want laws that reflect YOURS.  

Its not total fiction but it is a total myth. Its possible that someone who has to figure out and accept that he/she is not "normal" has to figure out their own emotions and can help others do it to. But that does not mean a gay person goes throw a process like that.



But where does this end at? Is it like Fedrick Douglas's "Do nothing for us."? I never read Equilibrium is that society like the one in a Brave New World minus everyone but the Alpha's?



I think that there is such a thing as a truely gay and truely straight person but I believe that under special conditions a large majority of people will play with a same sex partner.



No not really, males were supposed to take on a wife, so a guy who wasn t into women would be have been either forced into having sex with a woman or being ostracized. Also you would have either been ostracized (if your lucky) or beaten up by the older boys for not giving them sex.
Then we can talk about the citizens of Athens who trained boys in the sexual arts at the tender age of 8. Even the vast majority of homosexuals here would consider that wrong. But thats cause of our cultural taboos.



The law in my county is that you have to be in missionary, I think its a law that is no longer enforced.



Technically that is true, but it is also a cultural law even if we won t admit it to ourselves.

I have to say that even having someone bring up sexual practices in an internet forum is depressing, to me. I'm sure it's all for the benefit of discussion (cough) but my personal experiences with any discussions about sexual practices is -> it's sometimes just a come-on ... a form of phishing, and IMHO it has no place in any serious discussion. I'm sure the "crocidile tears" will flow freely if I refuse to jump in the water, but I'm not impressed.

I believe that sexual practices are minor, very minor, in comparison to what I beleive are the great challenges of our time, which are how to combat ignorance, poverty, superstition, fanaticism, dishonesty, bigotry, repression, and exploitation (by any means). I envision a world where I can go into a coffee-shop where gay people working there don't give me dirty, hateful looks and spit in my coffee while they make it because their sixth-sense tells them I'm not gonna be part of their crowd. Religious people, especially "christians" (look at me, I'm Christ!) do it too. So do a lot of other groups. It's abysmally ignorant to let the minor, immediate "gratifications" get in the way of Human progress, IMHO. That's a prime example of the kind of ignorance that needs to be cured.

When I don't see bigotry pouring out of someone, or the group they associate with, then I might consider beleiving they have a mind and thoughts worth listening to, but till then, it's all "a load of crap!"   

Thats cool but to let you know I am not the one who brought it up. It was brought up here WWW Link in post #383. My comment in #393 wasnt meant to say that it was "good" to pass laws like that but to say that it works for what it was intended to do.

Dystopic then brought the subject here to talk about his views on marriage. All I have done is to say I disagree.

intresting I may try to see it.


While the species will survive its also good for INDIVIDUALS to want THEIR genes past on.

Nor is it really race more culture, I want the culture to survive and your culture will fall if you just bring in numbers through adoption. There were several Christian groups during the 1800's that died out because the believed this world was too cruel to bring into the world. No conversion rate can sustain a population without MAJOR changes to the culture. If you change anything too fast it can fail.

That billion number is also questionable, only educated guesses can be made in that field. Anyways that can change there is no guarrenty that any number of people will survive in any number. Real populations change they don t stay static.



Yes being out manned is one of my problems especially when I hear my enemies talking about out breeding us openly. Yes nations rise and fall, yes most likely so will the U.S.A but why should I help hasten its fall? You maybe a Internationalist but I am not. These enemies will not just take away my freedoms Dystopic but yours as well us pagans and gays are both allowed to be killed with out much ado in that culture. Mayhaps its would be best for us to take this country warts and all then fall to this enemy. Its not like we aren t changing anyways Dystopic I think you just want to hasten it a bit too fast.

One of the mortal wounds of the Western Roman Empire was immigration problems. The Vandals were legal immigrants into Northern Spain. The problem the Roman had with them is they were never ROMANIZED. Its really hard to to Aculturalize so many people. If this problem killed a nation before why cant it kill again?


d'oh I have had to edit this 3 times!

yes, but how does that relate to whether or not gay couples should be allowed to adopt? this seems to suggest that keeping the laws as they are will encourage gay people to have their own biological children. whether or not gay couples can adopt children as easily as straight couples can --- i can't see how it has any bearing on the reproduction rates whatsoever. can you propose a causal mechanism?



well of course. but if you don't change something fast enough when the times they are a-changin', it can also fail.



increasing our population is only going to straign our economy, which in turn would make it easier for these enemies to "take us over."

plus, you're talking about occupying half a continent occupied by what's effectively a militia of 350 million pretty well armed people. how exactly are these invading armies going to get here? when they talk about out-breeding, their talking about wearing us down to the point that we can't afford to maintain our overseas holdings. among other things, they're talking about using their children as weapons, it's sick, and i can't help but think about the part "my" country has played in driving these people to such extremes of depravity.

it's not even about internationalism really, and i'm not out to hasten the fall of the U.S. believe it or not, i do love this country: that's why i'm so critical of it. but worrying about another country outbreeding us... the "enemies" you're referring to are extremists are much as anything. i'm not saying they aren't dangerous. and it indeed is possible they might someday gain truly popular support somewhere such to motivate a country's industry towards large-scale industrial war. it's happened before more than once. maybe instead of digging our trenches early, we should be focusing on keeping the deperate legions of foreign peoples from turning into a fanatical armies of potential enemies. just a thought.



ah, so you're telling me i should support your laws because second-class citizenship is so much better than outright murder? that dog won't hunt, mon senior.



you're getting at yet another issue. our founding fathers had the insight to see that democracy in America functioned because the population was fairly homogeneous and especially because they were almost all Christian. that society has long since passed, and if you ask me we might already be living in the fall of the empire. but Americanizing the entire world, where we do our business (which is the whole point of an empire) is impossible, let alone Americanizing all of our immigrants and existing populations. but Americanization modeled on the WASP isn't the only option. even if the Vandals had been the only "barbarians" at Rome's gate, they wouldn't have been the only reason Rome fell. it takes two sides to create a conflict, and Rome also fell because its civic culture was too rigid and self-centric to integrate the diverse peoples its empire engulfed. it's economy was in shambles because it tried to grasp too much too quickly, and its elites had turned their attention from civic engineering and statecraft to decadence. if we're the next Rome, we're repeating history beautifully!

also... i find it increadibly interesting that these two topics, gay rights and U.S. foreign policy, are tied together in your perspective.

you said it, not i.

I think you misunderstand the nature of megalomania. it doesn't have to be despotic.



Now is this in the constitution, that it can be debated. i think not




I guess yould have shot them?




I am convinced,

Let's all wage war.
I think it's needed to just kill and force ourselves on others.
If you disagree then I want to kill.

I want to kill everyone, KILL KILL KILL.
I'm your kind of nutter.

KILL KILL KILL.

More like

I hate war and it's advocates, so.

MORON MORON MORON.

Brain dead MORON.

Marcus.

I don't
I pity people that think they need to take life.
I especially pity people that expect others to give or take life at the point of a gun

I hate war and anyone who want's it

My response was ironic.

KILL KILL KILL, MORON MORON MORON

Marcus

Ok lest think we need to live. food chain and life. do plants have feelings, eeeeeeern, NO. are you mental?






More the question, why do you think that killing people is correct.
if only you werent a moron,



like i said, Im a killer I will slay you now.
You are a "moron moron moron"

Please fight me more. victory was so easy.

Marcus

I agree, we don't need food, were all ethereal beings, leaves what are they, i know animal food. I'm an animal too. I will live on bollox like you, please teach me. before I starve, i need cows cut into chunks and cooked with plants and gravy to live.

don't forget onions and cow slices. with chips.




I hope the FBI aren't watching. trust me. you are now a suspect. someone will grass you for this.

Like I said, I always beat Morons.

Marcus