Yea, then after they finish off everyone who believes differently to them, they would start fighting each other until eventually the human race becomes extinct... that is the Al quaeda dream, and all their other extremist muslim comrades (pretend comrades that is).

And all that is required for this violent end of human existance to be avoided is for extremist muslims to wake up one day with just a little more tollerance of others in their hearts, or by being unable to exterminate hethens quicker than they are borne!! which is probably the case unless muslim extremist can regularly obtain nukes.

hahahaha

Sadly i do not know how you can stop the cycle of intollerance and hatred? Apart from with a bullet that is!

If anyone else has any ideas on how to stop muslim extremista apart from using a bullet, then i would like to hear it?

Oh, man, I'm just checking the post before I leave for work. I don't have time to respond - I'll try to get back later. Good thoughts, all of you. I don't agree with you all (what fun would that be), but great discussion. I'm going to spend my commute trying to organize my thoughts.

I'm not sure I'd agree. We all fear what we don't know. The solution is to learn about each other.

I've come to know people of all backgrounds over the years. I'm trying to make sure my kids get the same. It is much harder to judge a group of people when you know people in that group, be it economic, ethnic, or whatever. But does Osama Bin Laden want to know about us? I think not.



I would. If we should intervene anywhere because of human rights violations, then we should intervene everywhere there are human rights violations. We don't. We go where we feel our national security issues are. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just pointing it out. As have many others.



I hate to admit it, but this is a good point. The "proof" I have is that Osama said he did it and our government said he did it. That's it. But, as I have said before, I think it more likely that this is true than there is some large conspiracy. But, yes, that is only my opinion. There is no real "proof".

Oh, I can't resist - keep in mind that the "proof" to my side would have burned up in the towers and on the planes, so there's no way to know. Just like WMDs...  



I'll hold you to the same standard I did Stormbringer - how is it harmful? I don't see India complaining about the IT jobs that are going there. China isn't griping about Wal-Mart. And don't even mention Mexico...

It's harmful when bombs are falling, yes. But our culture and economy has never started a war (unless you can convince me otherwise). You have a great quote, but I'm not sure the facts back it up.



Yes, it is. If you commit an attack we drop bombs. If you are supporting an attack I don't think that warrants a military response.



We support America by discussing and solving our problems. "My country, right or wrong" is like "My mother, drunk or sober".



Nope. That is the stated goal of fundamentalist Islam. We are in a war. Try to accept that.



Well, it's debate. I wouldn't call it intelligent debate. These discussions help me hone my wit, to help verbalize my beliefs, to make me express what I feel. And sometimes I see that I might be...well, let's call it less than well-informed. Any debate is helpful.

If this ever happened I wouldn't know what to do. On the one hand I would gladly take up arms against the system and deal with all who oppose me with swift and deadly action... probably more than would be necessary, which would be the sinister, kill 'em all side of me that I can usually suppress.
Then the logical side of me would want no parts of violence because as I stated elsewhere, I don't believe violence is the answer and I do actually believe that my soul will be judged one day, ahem.
So, as I said, if this were to happen in our country I would become thoroughly confused as to what action I would wish to take. I just don't know, in the end I don't think I would sacrifice my eternal soul for my mortal flesh... know what I mean.
Although if someone knows of some loopholes in the way all of this works with regards to Judgement day...

it's not that simple, either. for starters, there's as much diversity among muslims as there is among christians. is the american christian bombing of abortion clinics any less a form of terrorism than is a car bomb?

Al Queda represents one response to a well-established history of western/christian imperialism in the middle east dating back to the crusades. particularly, i think they're reacting most strongly to our culture and economic models being forced onto thier socieity. they're afraid that everything they know is being pushed aside. and they're right about that much.

is their response to the crimes they feel have been committed against them right? of course not. but it's not so irrational as people like to think. after all, we've got Pat Buchanan and that crowd inventing "the gay agenda" because there are plenty of christians in this country who feel the same way as Al Queda. i don't think they're directly behind things like clinic bombings and Matthew Shepard, no. but they fan the flames, and i think they'd do more if they could.

we're not innocent victims. we've allowed this state of affairs to develop by neglecting the consequences of our own greed, and our solution seems to be throwing fuel on the fire.

the Imams only speak for the Shi'a, which is a minority of muslims. and they don't even necessarily "speak for" every Shi'ite. most muslims are Sunni: from western africa to indonesia, this is the form of Islam that spread. a portion of Sunnis are Sufi, which is the more mystical form akin to classical Hassidism among Jews or pentacostal Christians (or Tantra in Hinduism and Buddhism). as for where their debates are, well, they're in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, and many other languages. (as an aside, when i say "Christian," i don't just mean Protestant, but also Catholic and Eastern Orthodox - when you include those, this debate you speak of seems a little less robust than your diction indiciates).



so it's not terrorism because it happens less frequently and with less organization? that doesn't fully convince me, but you make a fair enough point. also, we don't have too many clinic bombing here, but a recent outbreak of gay bashings here in San Diego (about 6 over the last year) has got several uptown neighborhoods quite outraged, effectively to the point of forming a militia.



well, i hate to throw articles at you, but this is the guy that convinced me: Benjamin Barber. i only give the link instead of responding directly because he's a lot more eloquent than i am on this topic.



so what are the labor protests in the Phillipines all about? and yes, those happened in Mexico too, about 10 years ago IIRC. their governments don't complain; hell, they put these protests down. international business doesn't fully control government (ours or others), but the effect is there. but Al Queda isn't a government, and that's why they complain. its members gain nothing from our globalizing economy (with the exception of the bin Laden family, who've become rich exporting oil to the West and are close friends of the Bush family).

though, actually, i wasn't referring to labor markets nearly as much as consumables and media; the implications of that emphasis are clearer in the article i linked.



did you know hydrogen cells have been around as a viable, totally renewable (by sunlight, no less) fuel for over 20 years? material science has brought tank ruptures to nothing more than a distant possibility, and i even vaguely remember reading a Scientific American article about turning molecular hydrogen into a mostly innert liquid that'd still oxidize under the right conditions (created in the engine itself). of course, i don't have a link for that readily available.

the engines based on corn-derived alcohol GMC has made lately would actually be worse for the environment if fully implemented as a replacement for gas-powered engines. the amount of corn we'd need for this country's automotive uses would deplete our soil in a few years and turn water vapor into the new greenhouse gas, but at least we could grow the corn ourselves. and for now, we've got enough surpluss corn in the U.S. that it's not going to make us worse off, environmentally.

we've had alternative technology for some time, but none of the industry money-makers are willing to leave behind their production investment in gasoline-powered cars. the government will only offer tax incentives to the consumer: god forbid they'd insitute something like an annually increasing tax on the production and sale of gasoline-powered vehicles. i'm not saying we turn with open arms towards a command economy, but why does the citizen always bear the brunt? i've read that mulitnational corporations worm out of over 50% of the taxes they rightly over the government, which is an inferred estimation to be sure. still, can you imagine what kind of money that is? but what's true at work is true in taxes: sh*t flows downhill.

i was referring to actual bombings, not protests.



or like letting Al Queda (or the Imam) speak for all muslims... which you never said is happening. but it's a stereotype all too common. that was mostly the point i was trying to bring to fore. the same problems over there can be found here.

I didn't know that.

But then shouldn't there be some Sunnis preaching tolerance and understanding? Maybe there are, but why don't we hear them?



No, those governments don't complain. They don't have to - all the people who are upset enough to complain just come here! I'm all for immigration - both sets of my grandparents were immigrants. My point is that these governments aren't trying so solve their problems, the problems leave. And they come here and become productive citizens. The Mexican government would be much different if they were actually trying to solve their poverty problem.



Everything you say about alternative fuels is true. Because of ethanol, the price of corn has gotten so high that we are about to see a rise in food prices because so much corn is going for fuel. And what happens we no longer have surplus food to feed the world? Let 'em eat oil!



Amen!



Wow, look at that. We had groups of intolerant people practicing hateful acts against innocent citizens. So what did we do? We discussed it openly, enacted hate crime laws, and used societal pressure to make it wrong. Is it fixed completely? No, and it probably never will be. But a society can address these issues - if they and their leaders want to. I am sure that you wouldn't argue that we are more highly evolved, would you?

Well if you think that supporting an attack isn't the same as committing it then you should also be asking why being an accessory to a crime in America such as murder carries such high penalties?

hmm on second thought... now that i think of it, if you are not actually involved in the murder but openly say how wonderful it is that that person got murdered, i do not believe that is a crime is it?

hehehe true,,, unless your in a Muslim country!

I never did say one power abolish religion, I mean everyone discards it. It wont happen, since most religious people are stubborn, and naive fools. But if everyone wilfully gave up their religion, it would cure most intolerance, since the majority of intolerance IS caused by religion. I dont see why we have to fight and hate each other over NOTHING. We are nothing more than highly evolved animals.

Now Marcus. On 9/11 nearly 3000 people were killed for no reason by radical islamists. Now, we are returning the favor. And whats next? Some muslim smuggles a nuke through Mexico, and blows up NY completly? Since, I assume your not American, you probably wont give a damn about it, and still support peaceful means. Now you see, they wont mind, cause doing that is SUPPORTED. Now we havent done it, cause all the democrats in DC think we can stop them peacefully. Hahaha yea, cause building a democracy and building up ISF is REALLY gonna change their genocidal ideology.