Oh yea, Canada, land of heroes.

Are you aware that the US military is voluntary? These aren't conscientious objectors, these are cowards. They volunteered for the ARMED FORCES.

What "many" wars are you referring to btw? World War II? You just mentioned Canada was in it. Or maybe you mean the Korean War which, if it weren't for Americans, would now be part of what is today North Korea. I suspect a good chunk of your computer equipment you're currently using was made in South Korea. My monitor and the memory in my computer was manufactured in South Korea. You can thank the United States for that.

Or maybe you mean the Civil War where the North's victory meant an end to slavery. Perhaps there are some other wars, other than Vietnam, that you are referring to for this "proud" tradition to have come to be.

And in Canada that would be a real problem because they've only got a few dozen soldiers or so anyway. So any soldier leaving is going to have a real impact!

As for Marvin Cooley, your just CRAZY! But because I can't let such wacko-ness go unanswered, I'll bite:

"Where would Canada be without American military protection?" Just fine, everybody in the world isn't out to get US!?

"The U.S. sent more troops to Europe then all other nations combined." This is true, but irrelevant. The U.S. was the only country outside Europe with that many people. I mean, Australia and Canada combined are only one sixth the size of the U.S.. Wouldn't it be a bit embarrassing if you hadn't sent more troops?

"And in World War II, Canada donated 10 or 15 thousand measly troops while the United States sent millions." Are you on crack? More than a MILLION Canadians served in WWII. And we didn't wait three years to entered the damn war in the first place.

But that was different -- that was Hitler -- everybody knew he had weapons.


Super Baby: No, Canada has the same policy regarding conscientious objectors as the U.S. military does. If one becomes a conscientious objector while serving they must apply for C.O. status. The difference is that such status is almost never granted the U.S. and apparently many believe that objectors are just dismissed out of hand.


Draginol: Wars: Canada, Mexico, Spain, Philippines, Moro Campaigns, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Cuba, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Veitnam, Cambodia, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq I, Afghanistan and Iraq II.

Of course, some of these wars I would have agreed with (particularily: WWI, WWII, Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan), but that's a lot of wars any way you count.

When I referred to draft dodgers fleeing to Canada, I was thinking of 1812 and Vietnam. I have never personally met a Canadian that wasn't proud of our opposition to the draft in general, or to accepting U.S. draft dodgers specifically.

I don't think that Canadians a particularily heroic as individuals, but we have a long track record of pursuing the global interest without overriding regard for our own interests. The same simple cannot be said of the United States.

Wow, I see a lot of Canada bashing here by my fellow Americans. It's really sad because I think it's opinions like these that cause the rest of the world to percieve us as warmongers.

Ian, good for you for standing up for your country. I think a lot of American people are very snobbish about our military staus in the world because it is so overpowering, and because we think that we should be the police of the world.

-- B

Super Baby: No, but from what I've read virtually no one in U.S. military does.

Super Baby: No, but from what I've read virtually no one in U.S. military does.

In other words, Canada will still force many of its troops to go into a war in which they do not want to participate?

AFAIK these people would not receive CO status in the US. To qualify as a CO you have to think that *all* war is morally wrong, not that the particular war in which you are being asked to serve is morally wrong--so the objection can't be political. From what I have heard, the deserters object only to this particular war, and not all war.

So the fairness of the hearing would have nothing to do with their rejection. They don't meet the standard.

Sometimes people give rhetoric that they probably regret.

This article is a good example.

Ian wrote originally:

We have a proud tradition of accepting those who refuse to fight in America's many wars.

To which I responded above pointing out that the only wars that would have seen Americans going to Canada (i.e. wars that involved a significant force and likely involved draftees in one form or other) were either ones that Canada agreed with (or should have) or participated in.  The one exception being Vietnam which doesn't make a "tradition".

And this is what ian writes as his "response". This is the best he can apparently muster:

He then answers:

Draginol: Wars: Canada, Mexico, Spain, Philippines, Moro Campaigns, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Cuba, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Veitnam, Cambodia, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq I, Afghanistan and Iraq II.

That's nice. That's a list of places the US has sent troops to.  Which doesn't answer the question I asked. 

So let's just get the fact out there: Canada doesn't have any such tradition because the number of conflicts that the US has been involved with that Canada didn't either support or was involved in in which US troops would have wanted to flee is basically just Vietnam. Unless you can provide a legitimate source for Americans fleeing Canada because they feared going to Somalia or Greneda then your rhetoric is just more mindless left-wing rhetoric that reminds us all of the unthinking anti-Americanism that O'Reilly and others have been pointing out.

In other words, you make O'Reilly's point for him because you're reflexively anti-American. 

Americans don't dislike Canada. I like Canada. I like Canada like any other US state.  That's how Americans tend to think of Canada - just another state. We don't mean that in any negative way. It's a country nearly the same size as the United States with a population less than at least 1 US state.

I tend to think of Canada's anti-Americanism coming from insecurity on the part of Canada rather than any sort of principled position. Your response only reinforces that. You make lofty statements of Canadian tradition for being a refuge for those who don't want to fight in America's "many wars" and when pressed you show that you really didn't know what you were talking about.  What's really amusing is that you then (in the same post) take pride for getting involved in World War II sooner. Indeed. We Americans aren't nearly as war happy as Canadians I guess.

Canada does have traditions I'm sure.  There's hockey for example. Canadians have a proud hockey tradition. They also have..well, they really have that hockey thing nailed down.

Incidentally, according to Vietnamwar.com, more Canadians crossed the border to go to Vietnam than Americans who fled to Canada to avoid the draft: http://www.vietnamwar.com/CanadianCasualties.htm

 

Ian, thank you for posting that. People like you help me remember that not all North Americans are morons. We do have our friendly neighbors up north to flee to should the devil...uh, I mean Bush get re-elected. I am a C.O., well at least in theory. I have not wasted time attepmt to apply because I know that it would be futile. The only war in American history that I agree with is WWII. Not even this Civil War that "ended slavery". Do people really think that was the point of the Civil War? I thought we learned in like 7th grade that it wasn't true. The Civil War happened because the South ceded from the North. Lincoln didn't want that to happen, something about he wanted their tax money and didn't agree with the "Declaration of Independence" that gave the South the right to do that. Lincoln declared an "Emancipation Proclimation" during the Civil War, but look closely at what the executive order did. It freed all slaves in Southern States, which we had no power over. The Northern states that allowed slavery still had slavery. It wasn't until the Civil Rights Amendments that slavery was actually banned. Especially look at the 13th amendment. The South had every right to leave te Union. And with the elections coming up, I'd be happier if they were their own nation and couldn't give Bush automatic votes.

So, back to my main point. There are rumors of plans to reinstate the draft if Bush gets reelected. I plan on seeking refugee status in Canada should that happen and pray that Canada will grant me it. Canada is a much better place than the US, no Bush family, Socialism (well, some form of it at least), and gay marriage (which is important to me). So thank you Canada for putting up with the assholes to your south.

Mr. Frog - Ah I see, Ian and you aren't arrogant. Just "elitist" Americans like me. And when Canada runs off to join World War II years before the United States, it's "nipping a problem in the bud". But when the United States does the same, it's more of our war mongering that builds a ficticious "tradition" of poor Americans running to Canada to escape our "many wars".

And despite living only 15 miles from the border of Canada, yes, I fully admit to not being that familiar with various Canadian cultural issues outside hockey and anti-Americanism. Then again, I doubt the average Canadians knows very much about say Greenland and Iceland (I know the Canadians here don't).

In America, people who run from their pledged duties are called cowards. In Canada, they're welcomed as heroes. I think that provides enough of a distinction for anyone.

I don't know if it is anti-americanism as much as its just basic human nature with an anti-Bush post thrown in for good(annoying) measure. The problem here is, neither side is willing to admit anything(just like any people in any fight) and instead just throw an insult back. That's all this is, its happening on both sides here. I live not too far from the border with Canada. I'm friends with some people who moved here from Canada a few years back...guess what? They are big big hockey fans. I also tend to agree with the statement that Americans tend to view Canada as just another state. It's true. Going to Canada doesn't really feel like a different country. Seriously, if the world was being destroyed and I could pick 3 countries to save, it would be the US, Canada, and Japan.

Draginol: When I referred to accepting draft dodgers, I was referring to British Loyalists and Vietnam. You may not think that these two instances qualify as a tradition, but on that we'll have to disagree.

When I referred to America's "many wars" I was referring to them in general, not just to the wars in which Canada's accepted draft dodgers. That's why when you asked "what 'many wars'" I simply responded with a long list of wars.

I can see how you could easily think that I was saying 'Canada has accepted American draft dodgers from many American wars' -- I apologize for my imprecise phrasiology, but I still hold fast to my opinion that Canada should be proud of it's willingness to accept American draft dodgers.

Whether it's draft dodgers, runaway slaves or those facing execution, it's important that Canada remain true to it's values and objectivity.

You see, it isn't that the United States is an evil country -- in fact, it's just the opposite. If we were talking about sending people back to Uzbekistan or Burma or Sudan or Saudi Arabia or even China, it would be easy for us to stand up for what we believe in.

It's that were willing to do so even in face of opposition from the strongest country in world, our closest ally and a nation we still respect a great deal that makes our actions meaningful. Values don't mean much if your only willing to stand by them when it's easy.