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Europe on the Brink of Takeover?

greywar

Join Date 05/2003

Europe on the Brink of Takeover?

Islamism, Culture, Terror, and Paris Hilton

Mark Steyn has posited that Europe is rapidly approaching (and perhaps has even passed) a demographic point of no return. Dharma’s recent article regarding the extermination of Christian references during the Christmas season in Britain seems to re-enforce the point. I ask you here at JU and beyond the walls of this blog to answer these questions: Can Europe reverse the trend or is it already too late? Will Europe be forced to don the hijab and accept their status as Dhimmi under the approaching New Caliphate? Is it possible that this could force a return to European fascism and nationalism as a counter?

For my part I think it is far too late for Europe to turn the demographic tide by simply having more kids. The cultural revolution of the Zero Population Growth advocates has come to pass and there is no likely return to the reproductive habits of earlier centuries. I believe that it is also too late for Europe to resort to a resurgent fascist movement as a means of cultural survival as Ralph Peters “rebuttal” to Steyn would suggest. The population simply isn’t there and neither is the will to fight. The Muslims of Europe simply seem to want it more. There will be no rising tide of old school European nationalism simply because there are not enough young non-Muslim militants for it to work. You can’t deport people en masse without a brutal and ideologically engaged military with enough numbers to combat their opposites in the deportee community.

My prediction is that Europe will fall to Islamism with hardly a whimper as long as the Muslims don’t try and rush things with further terror attacks. They will simply breed their way into power. More kids mean more votes and I don’t care how educated post-schismatic bishops think they are :

“"Episcopalians aren't interested in replenishing their ranks by having children?"

"No," agreed Bishop Kate. "It's probably the opposite. We encourage people to pay attention to the stewardship of the earth and not use more than their portion." (How very Paris Hilton of her - GW)

The fact is that her single grand kid gets one vote when they reach the age of majority and this woman’s 42 grandkids get 42:

"We are really happy," her son Zuheir told Agence France-Presse. "She told us last night that she would do a suicide operation. She prepared her clothes for that operation, and we are proud. 'I don't want anything, only to die a martyr.' That's what she said."

If Europe is lucky they might be allowed to leave the new Caliphate for the U.S. and other more secular areas provided that America has not also gone down the same road to the abattoir of the infidel called Political Correctness first. After all we would want the Brits to beat us to it do we? After all the folks in “non-flyover America” want us to be as urbane and refined as those fancy Europeans.

Just my opinion though, I am sure you will tell me how wrong it is….

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ygCJPbjV0

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""Many are watching a man named Javier Solona out of Spain. I'd keep an eye on him if I were you. Do your research. If you know anything of biblical prophecy...this man will make your hair turn white."

I've read about him. He's even done some stuff I find admirable. What exactly makes you worry about him? Did he dress up as Santa Claus?

P.S. It's Javier Solana.

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This must be what KFC is talking about. There seems to be some of the same sentiment here. Thank God for Google or I'd never know about all these wackos.

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ecological maintenance of the planet, safe and effective nuclear

These 2 are just so much BS.

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=vadmK1WlK2k

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Yes there is much to be concerned about and they are changing the face of Europe. I will fight to my death before I don a hijab so you can imagine what the future holds for all of us if we don't act now! Here in Belgium public schools have acquiesced to halal food, separate swimming times for boys and girls and separate toilets for Muslims and "infidels" - DAMN is this what we want? Ruled by the Shaariah??? Not me, I don't want a theocracry! It's bad enough that we don't really separate Church and State...

Cheers
Tisha
tishabest@hotmail.com

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"These 2 are just so much BS."

Really Dr.? Have not the majority of the European nations signed the Kyoto emission reductions act, whether or not it would cripple their economy, do not a greater percentage of Europeans use mass transit, which has been proven to provide lower per capita emissions, do not the French get the majority of their electric power from nuclear fission energy?

I would have to say the Europeans are at the forefront of many different ecological developments. In the United States, in order for an effort to be adopted in an effort to save the environment, there has to be a major BUCK on the back end AND it can't compete with any well established lobbying force in this country. So you tell me, why the Europeans are farther along at developing an emissions free automobile, even though we drive more automobiles per capita, why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are 5-10 years further in development then anything available in the United States. Also tell me why we aren't putting solar cells up onto of the gas station overhangs to collect the free solar energy on a structure already there?

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Tell me also Dr. Why fuel economy standards haven't increased even with all of our innovative superiority?

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You say SAP is the 4th largest software company. Sure. But 13 of the top 15 are American. Why is that?

Europe only has 1 of the top 5 largest auto companies and shares another with the US (Daimler Chrysler). Why is that?

While having the biggest corporations doesn't hurt, I don't think it is everything that counts. I'll take engineering as an example: There are lots and lots of medium-sized businesses in Germany, highly-skilled specialists in their business. They produce and sell in several countries, usually involving Europe, the US and Asia. But many of them aren't stock corporations and not listed anywhere. They aren't very large, but they don't have to be. In fact, their limited size often allows them to react quicker and be "nearer to the customer". I don't have the figures at hand, but IIRC around 75% of all jobs in Germany are in businesses of this "Mittelstand" (most of them not in engineering of course). I think this is different in e.g. the UK or the US. Everything may be bigger in the US, but that doesn't say that it is better at the same time.

I'm not trying to bash Europe. I am trying to understand. It's a continent that once absolutely dominated the world that today can't be bothered to produce most of the things they use and now can't be bothered to even reproduce.

But how many of the US products are really invented, developed and produced in the US? (Coming back to the US trade deficit - maybe less meaningful than it seems though.) With more or less the same reasoning, I guess you could say that we'll speak Chinese on both sides of the Atlantic in 100 years. Oh, and the US presidents might be hispanics by then - but not until we all started praying to Allah in Europe, of course.

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Tell me also Dr. Why fuel economy standards haven't increased even with all of our innovative superiority?

Show me where they haven't. Since I drove a car in 1969 with an average of 11.5 gpm. I now drive a car that gets 30 gpm. How is that "not" an increase? And I can site various makes and models that get better gpm than that!

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why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are 5-10 years further in development then anything available in the United States.

Hydogen has been proven many times over not to be "economically" sound.

Also tell me why we aren't putting solar cells up onto of the gas station overhangs to collect the free solar energy on a structure already there?

Why don't you ask the gas staion owners why they don't spend the money to do so.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Dan,

If you want to debate, you need to learn how to do it.

For example. Debates go like this:

<Assertion> [Evidence]

Example:

Fashion, ecological maintenance of the planet, safe and effective nuclear energy providing the bulk of their energy resources, light rail.

This is assertion.

You provide no evidence. (and in fact you are incorrect on all of these IMO). Only France gets a significant % of its energy from nuclear and it is in the process of migrating away from it. If you've been to Europe, which you clearly haven't given the above statement, you would definitely not consider it at the forefront of ecological maintainence. They only recently stopped putting lead in their gas. Light Rail has nothing to do with ecology and everything to do with having large cities that are close together.

But I'm not going to go and do the research for you on every proclaimation you make.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

"How many products and goods and services can really say they're European?"

The same could be said of the United States. That is if you've shopped at Walmart lately, and bothered to look at a label with the prefix MADE IN ...

said Dan as he types his message on an American designed PC built on American designed CPU displayed on an American designed graphics technology running on an American made operating system via an American made web browser on an American made website..

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Really Dr.? Have not the majority of the European nations signed the Kyoto emission reductions act, whether or not it would cripple their economy, do not a greater percentage of Europeans use mass transit, which has been proven to provide lower per capita emissions, do not the French get the majority of their electric power from nuclear fission energy?

I would have to say the Europeans are at the forefront of many different ecological developments. In the United States, in order for an effort to be adopted in an effort to save the environment, there has to be a major BUCK on the back end AND it can't compete with any well established lobbying force in this country. So you tell me, why the Europeans are farther along at developing an emissions free automobile, even though we drive more automobiles per capita, why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are 5-10 years further in development then anything available in the United States. Also tell me why we aren't putting solar cells up onto of the gas station overhangs to collect the free solar energy on a structure already there?

Another example of just stating things without any evidence. Well Dan, which nations have signed the Kyoto accords? Did you bother to look it up? Would going to Wikipedia be really that tough?

This is why I don't bother spending much time with you anymore because you are too lazy to try to even formulate an argument. You just make claims. FYI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kyoto_Protocol_participation_map_2005.png

That's who has signed it. Basically everyone. Even China. So is China on the forefront of ecological maintainence too? How about India? Are they too? If not, then in what way is Kyoto a metric of ecological care?

At least this time you mention that it is the french who get much of their energy from nuclear power. That's nice. But that's not "Europe". That's France, one country in Europe. And they're migrating away from nuclear energy to coal (Thanks to the environmentalist movement that hates nuclear power too).

More baseless claims: Europe in the lead of emissions free automobiles. Really? I must have missed all those European made hybrids and hyrogen cars. Where is your evidence to suppor that Europeans are 15 years ahead in Hydrogen technology? I'm not even saying you're wrong, but you just spout out this stuff with not even the slightest effort to back it up. The Wikipedia page on Hydrogen cars show the GM Sequel (Hydrogen car). If Europeans are so far advanced in this area, where is the evidence? Where are the production European cars running on Hydrogen? Because I'm pretty sure that you'll see cars from Toyoto, Honda, GM, and Ford that are production-level using Hydrogen in 10 to 15 years.

Why don't you educate yourself on ecological technology and who is using it before you start spouting it off. This is a discussion on Europe btw. Europe does have many fine attributes but ecological leadership is definitely not one of them.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I guess the point I'm trying to make follows something you mentioned earlier -- Europe's GDP (when combined) is larger than the United States. But they lead in virtually no major industries and I can't think of a single industry they dominate. The question is, why is that? Obviously there are many industries that the Europeans are major players in. But when compared to what one would expect, it's far less.

Why aren't the Europeans dominating the car industry, computer industry, food industry, entertainment industry, pharmacuetical (sp) industry, and so forth? In fact, why are they barely represented in these industries? This isn't a criticism, this is just a question on why is this the case? Europe who has an educated population and a strong rule of law should be far more represented in leading the world in making stuff. And they're not. Not by a long shot.

If the whole of Europe were like Germany, then Europe would probably be doing a lot better. But it's not. Germany towers over other countries in Europe.

Spain has a GDP less than some US states. How the hell did that happen? They don't even have the World Wars to consider because they stayed out and the Spanish Civil war was far less damaging than what say Germany went through. Italy's GDP is about the same as California's. How did that happen? Seriously.

Let's take it one step forward -- imagine this European discussion if Germany and the UK weren't part of Europe. They don't make up anywhere near the majority of the population or land area. And Germany has far fewer geographic advantages as Italy and Spain do.

This begs the question: What the heck is going on with Europe?

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I know you're kidding but you make a good point here. Who isn't to say that in 100 years China won't be the world's greatest power.

But the US won't be eclipsed if simply because its native population is reproducing enough to ensure that our GDP continues to grow. Also, China would have to start to invent things. The US trade deficit is going to continue to increase as long as the US gets richer compared to the rest of the world.

The only reason there wasn't MASSIVE trade deficits in the past was because much of the rest of the world's manufacturing sectors were ruined by war (or locked in by communism). Now, manufacturing is increasingly being off-shored to low-cost areas. Trade deficits are largely a meaningless statistic because they effectively display the wealth of the importer vs. the wealth of the exporter. Per capita GDP is more meaningful IMO.

But let's fast-forward things 50 years. Europe's native population will be way down. Some European countries will have significant (or near majority) Islamic populations. This is just letting current trends continue. The EU's GDP is growing far slower than China or the US. And I think the negative trends will likely be accelerating so taking current trends is probably being optimistic.

What do you conclude that Europe will be like in 50 years based on that? Poorer and split between seculars and Islam. Is this a good thing? Do you think these trends won't continue and if not, why not?

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Here's a really interesting article regarding European economic growth and comparing it to the United States:

http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/pdf/EU_vs_USA_English.pdf

Definitely worth reading.

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"What WTC towers did the Jews fly planes into? "

What WTC towers did the Iraqis fly planes into? If you want to talk about asinine lets talk about asinine pretexts for invading another sovereign state.

"I see it all coming together."

So basically you're insane? Is this the same text that tells us the world is but 10,000 years old?

"The US was fighting a civil war. ".... "In industry after industry, Europe either had a head start because the indusries already existed or they never even got really into the game. The newer the industry, the worse Europe seems to do."

Well there was this little thing called WWII. Where did that take place again and which state profited the most by its occurance? Dont get too self congratulatory Draginol. The US built itself on the backs of Europes ultimate cultural and political diversity. You guys lost 3,000 in the WTC and you're almost tearing yourselves apart. Try losing 10's of millions and almost your entire economic base to a fascist war and then maybe you'll begin to appreciate the virtues of a little "consensus".

The States has been at the forefront of global dominance for 50 years. Come back in another several hundred and tell us about how Europe doesn't measure up then? Frankly if the Europe conducted itself like the US (5% of the world population consuiming 20% of the world resources) then there would be no world/future to speak of. Forget about the Muslims, its going to be a scorched earth for all of us. US consumptive culture is precisely what's going to kill us all. Yet you write as though thats what the world needs more of. Frankly you couldn't be more wrong.

Besides all of this did you guys ever hear of a couple of countires called India and China? Theres more to this world mix than just Christianity and Islam.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Well there was this little thing called WWII. Where did that take place again and which state profited the most by its occurance? Dont get too self congratulatory Draginol. The US built itself on the backs of Europes ultimate cultural and political diversity. You guys lost 3,000 in the WTC and you're almost tearing yourselves apart. Try losing 10's of millions and almost your entire economic base to a fascist war and then maybe you'll begin to appreciate the virtues of a little "consensus".

Oooh how I love arrogance when combined with ignorance.

Was Spain, Portugal, Switzerland laid waste in World War II? And Japan was totally brought to its knees. It suffered far more than say France did. Japan is doing great. Why isn't France? Germany was devastated more than nearly any European country and it's come back better than most. I don't think World War II is a good rationale.

The US certainly is built on the influence of Europe. No doubt about it. Therefore, one would thik that the "real thing"(TM) would be dominating right?

The States has been at the forefront of global dominance for 50 years. Come back in another several hundred and tell us about how Europe doesn't measure up then? Frankly if the Europe conducted itself like the US (5% of the world population consuiming 20% of the world resources) then there would be no world/future to speak of. Forget about the Muslims, its going to be a scorched earth for all of us. US consumptive culture is precisely what's going to kill us all. Yet you write as though thats what the world needs more of. Frankly you couldn't be more wrong.

By all measurements, coming back in 50 years won't be necessary because Europe won't be enough of a player to even bother a comparison any more than making a comparison between the US and South America today is not worth the time.

One might argue that anyone who takes pride in how little of the world's resources they use is a symptom of the problem. Wow, Europe is using less of the world's resources than the US. Congratulations. Europe is catching up on Zimbabwe in that respect. Maybe in 50 years Europe will be able to proudly say they use near the least in resources. Do they give a little sticker for that?

What is being written here is the well-being of individuals. The well being of individuals, and by that we mean the material and quality of life, in Islamic countries is pretty awful by any reasonable measurement (and even unreasonable measurement). They're poor, they have far fewer freedoms, they have a shorter life expectancy, etc.

Europe's declining population (yay, they're using fewer resources?) combined with a very high Muslim immigration population is not a good sign. Toss in a decreasing relative standing in the world in terms of culture, economic, and military output and you have a disaster brewing.

According to the Cox survey, only 1 in 5 French households in 1999 owned a Microwave oven for crying out loud. But hey, not having these things means using less power. Yay France? Most Europeans in 1999 didn't even own a clothes dryer! Or a dishwasher! Or a computer! But at least you can take pride that you use less energy. Nice. Good for you. No wonder Europeans aren't reproducing at a rate to sustain their population.

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The EU is at a disadvantage compared to the US because we are much less united than you are when it comes to political structures, language and culture. Ask the British elite about continental Europe and you'll probably hear some rude words (giving up the British pound?! No way!). Spanish or Italian daily life is much different from the one in Central Europe or a Scandinavian country. And to make things worse most national governments aren't very enthusiastic about taking any (even temporary) disadvantage when decisions are made in Brussels. There's too much short-sighted protectionism. Agricultural subsidies anyone? Talk to Mr. Chirac about it...

We could really need that EU constitution. Frankly I don't think it is that good, but it is much better than the system in place now, particularly the voting system of unanimity. The EU is too big for the way its decisions processes work. It was a mistake to let (half of) Cyprus enter before the issues with Turkey are solved, and some other countries in Eastern Europe might have joined too quickly as well - and there will be two more on Jan 1st.

Spain has a GDP less than some US states. How the hell did that happen?

Spain was a dictatorship until 1975 and still has to catch up. (I guess you'll agree that dictatorships simply don't work regarding a strong economy in the long run.)

I don't know. I think that in human history there were very few predictions over 50 years that held true. If the EU finally manages to reform their structures (constitution etc.) and gets the idea of a united Europe into the heart of the average citizen, then the economy would be happy to follow.
If I'm not mistaken, most Muslims in Europe strive much less for their religion than the picture you get when watching the latest anti-Western demonstration in the Arab world. I'm sure you could come up with dark responses the average Muslim in the EU gave to a survey about human rights and the role of religion, but I think there's a gap between these responses and their own actions in reality. Most of them could be convinced otherwise, I think. There are both encouraging and discouraging examples in daily life, for me the matter simply isn't decided yet.

Also, China would have to start to invent things.

lol!

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Japan is doing great.

Japan has some problems under the hood though. Only recently they managed to put some serious reforms together after about 10 years of economical stagnation. And the average Japanese woman has less than 1.4 children (if I can trust the figures I found).

Microwave oven ... clothes dryer ... dishwasher

I have none of these at the moment (even though I could), and I don't think I really need them. But that's a personal choice - I used each of them at a certain point.

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You guys lost 3,000 in the WTC and you're almost tearing yourselves apart. Try losing 10's of millions and almost your entire economic base to a fascist war and then maybe you'll begin to appreciate the virtues of a little "consensus".

While the statement in itself is a little excessive I think it still raises a valid point. I think the reluctancy of Old Europe to join the US in Iraq is based to some extent on WW2 and the constant fear to be the battle field once again in the Cold War. The rest was just politics on both sides of the Atlantic.

The US simply didn't experience being devastated as a whole in the last 100 years, the Civil War is far away and was a different thing in nature. When people like John McCain who has been tortured himself - or ill-treated, if you prefer - speak against Guantanamo, it's the same thing. But that might lead too far away from this thread's subject.

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What WTC towers did the Iraqis fly planes into?

Assinine is taking a quote and then going off onto a totally different tangent. Now, do you want to comment on the quote? Or just be a shit thrower who does not know their ass from a hole in the ground?

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The EU is at a disadvantage compared to the US because we are much less united than you are when it comes to political structures, language and culture.

Not to be too critical, but I notice you use the EU when it supports your assertions, and then decry it when it does not. You are being very inconsistent. Which is not surprising since you really do not have an argument. But that is ok. We know the EU is just suckling pigs to the teats of Germany and England.

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