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Pro-Choice or Pro-Abortion?

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messybuu
MyViewsAndMuse
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #26 April 5, 2004 3:21:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
What about rape and incest? Should we turn a cold shoulder to those situations and just pretend they don't happen? Don't we live in a free democratic country? You find it pathetic so I take it you have dealt directly with abortion in your life. I thought only God could judge people but yet you judge why is that?


What about them? They are unfortunate things that happen. But should the child that results from these crimes be put to death? Is that democratic? Of course not.

No I have not had to deal directly with abortion. But I have never dealt directly with murder, theft or torture either. Does that make my opinion about them invalid? As for only God judging, are you suggesting that we do not have laws, courts and prisons?
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messybuu
TARSIER
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Reply #27 April 5, 2004 5:46:00 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
i agree with smitty. and I don't get what jul is saying. what makes things better? Abortion? Abortion is not totally harmless to the woman carrying the child either. Many unfortunate abortions can bring terrible things, physical and spiritual, things to the woman as well.
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messybuu
messybuu
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Reply #28 April 5, 2004 10:27:15 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
And who is to say whether it is just "self-mutilation"? Stabbing oneself in the stomach, is not like getting a tatoo. If you stab yourself in the stomach you will bleed to death unless you get medical attention.


That makes sense. I'll remove that statement from the quiz.

It's quite simple really. The first choice that needs to be made is: "Do I want this fetus to grow into a person". Pro-choice means giving women the right to make that decision.
The other questions you ask deal with: "If I chose that this fetus will become a baby, do I have the right to do things that will harm its' future well-being?" A very different matter altogether. I think one of the basics of our society is that we are all free do do as we please, as long as we don't harm someone elses interests. If a woman choses to have a baby, she is bound to take the wellbeing of that baby into consideration.


So, only as long as they intend to kill it, can they do what they want with their own bodies, and not killing it magically makes it a human life that should not be hindered?
I don't see how ending a potential life of a child is any better than hindering a potential life of a child. I say that if the government has the right to tell women how to live while pregnant, then they should have the right to tell women not to get abortions.
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messybuu
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Reply #29 April 6, 2004 3:08:36 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Does anyone else agree with me?
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messybuu
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Reply #30 April 8, 2004 12:41:42 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Tarsier, I do. However it seems this article as lived its' life.
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JeremyG
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Reply #31 April 8, 2004 12:44:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion, thank you.


 

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messybuu
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Reply #32 April 8, 2004 1:23:44 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #20 By: jeblackstar - 4/5/2004 2:04:08 PM
Now, hold on, some pro-choicers are pro-life, they just feel a woman has the right to choose

I am pro-choice.  But, I personally could never have an abortion.  But, I do not feel that it is my right to decide what other people do.  I also know a few children that were born with such horrible birth defects that they wish that they weren't born.  I also have a couple relatives/friends who either had an abortion and it was the right thing for them, or had the child and have regretted it ever since.  It's easy for people to say that the woman can just carry the baby to full term then put it up for adoption.  Those people have most likely never given birth if they think that.  And, I also hear pro-lifers say that cases of rape, chance of mother dying, or a child with a severe birth defect are reasons why it is "OK" to end the pregnancy.  Once you say it is OK at any point, it becomes pro-choice.  If you believe that abortion is murder, then it is never OK.  Pro-choice allows for choice.  It isn't pro-abortion- it just leaves the option available.

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messybuu
psychx
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Reply #33 April 8, 2004 4:24:31 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
What about them? They are unfortunate things that happen. But should the child that results from these crimes be put to death? Is that democratic? Of course not.


What about the child being subjected to years of psychological trauma due to the environment they are born in. Although these situations are not as common (thankfully) Not giving women to right to chose opens up those loopholes.

No I have not had to deal directly with abortion. But I have never dealt directly with murder, theft or torture either. Does that make my opinion about them invalid? As for only God judging, are you suggesting that we do not have laws, courts and prisons?


I am suggesting that you, as a person never having dealt with the choice, should not condemn people for making a decision that they lawfully can make at the present moment. It's fine that you put your two cents in, in fact it is welcome, but I am merely giving you some insight on how we are no one to say that it is pathetic for one individual to choose what is legally their right, especially when we do not know all the things that go with making that decision. As for God judging people that was a direct reply to you calling them pathetic just because their legal right does not reflect your ideals.
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Crash30920
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Reply #34 April 8, 2004 5:15:22 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
psychx religious dogma says that actions can be judged and people can only be judged by God so that argument is wrong. I am a pro-choice, pro death penalty, pro Euthanasia, and I am for more death sentences. I don't consider a sack of cells a child until it would be able to survive outside the womb on its own so like in the mid 20s of weeks. I might be very callus but I do not see much value in certain human beings. If a child is born premature and millions are spent on that child and they still have mental defects that kid was not worth the cost. On that same note if a drug dealer or the like is killed I would say that is a public service and not to spend the tax payers money on a investigation.
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messybuu
psychx
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Reply #35 April 8, 2004 6:11:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I am sorry but I don't know whether you are arguing my point or smitty's point I originally said that only God can judge people you are pretty much saying the same thing? So what basis do you think we can judge their actions on, a legal basis? or like smitty on a personal basis? You are as confusing as you are detached.
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jeblackstar
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #36 April 8, 2004 7:31:43 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
What about them? They are unfortunate things that happen. But should the child that results from these crimes be put to death? Is that democratic? Of course not.


And should the mother, who is a victim in these cases, be "punished" for being raped by having to care for the child? The mother didn't choose to get pregnant from her attacker, but now she has to support this reminder of the crime perpetrated against her. That doesn't sound very democratic either.

Cheers
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vernmeister2u
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Reply #37 April 9, 2004 1:35:35 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
To expound on my reply #35, you know why this particular issue is so pointless to discuss? Because everyone seems to forget the ground that was covered the last time it came up.

For instance, Jeb, I know you to be reasonable intelligent and probably have a good memory. But in reply #36 you say:

And should the mother, who is a victim in these cases, be "punished" for being raped by having to care for the child?


So hence, you have to be reminded AGAIN that ADOPTION is also an option in that instance. You don't mention that because it doesn't serve your side.

And psychx in reply #19:

What about rape and incest?


In the last discussion on here about this (at least that I participated in) I pointed out statistically just how FEW times these are the cases, and how it's more overwhelmingly for reasons of the woman's convenience that abortions take place. People may have questioned the statistics, but they offered nothing to refute them either. I may be wrong, but I thought you were involved in that discussion as well. Clearly no rule can be one size fits all, and there would have to be exceptions, BUT THATS WHAT IT WOULD BE, EXCEPTIONS, not just choice because of convenience being the RULE.

I do have to have to say that crash's response equating human life to monetary value is a new one. I guess all men weren't created equal, some have greater monetary value than others.
And on the other side, the side I'm on against abortion, you guys forget that not everyone is going to base the right or wrong of abortion on religious reasons. WE DONT ALL SHARE THE SAME RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. You have to come up with common ground if you are going to convince anyone about your side of the argument.

I've stated my reasoning so many times, I'm not going to waste my breath. Come on folks, how about some new ground here instead of the same old song and dance.

VES
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jeblackstar
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Reply #38 April 9, 2004 2:04:29 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Birth is not a fool proof option. It's possible for a mother to die even in a healthy baby. It's also possible for the child to die. Perhaps if a man were capable of going through labor he would, in general, be less likely to say no choice.

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messybuu
vernmeister2u
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Reply #39 April 9, 2004 8:09:20 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Birth is not a fool proof option. It's possible for a mother to die even in a healthy baby. It's also possible for the child to die. Perhaps if a man were capable of going through labor he would, in general, be less likely to say no choice.


Which changes nothing I said.
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jeblackstar
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Reply #40 April 9, 2004 11:24:38 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Actually, yes it does, you say that abortion magically solves all the problems of being raped, and it doesn't, the mother is still punished for being raped by having to go through the physical changes and dangers that go with pregnancy.

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messybuu
psychx
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Reply #41 April 9, 2004 12:52:20 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ok I will make it simpler vern since WE DONT ALL SHARE THE SAME RELIGIOUS BELIEFS than why should one belief try and impose its ideals on another? Even if your ideals have no religious basis, you shouldn't impose them on anyone else either. That includes all ideologies regardless of what they are. You believe it is murder, others do not, why is your way of looking at it better? The tone of your post is somewhat condescending which kind of tells me you feel that your point of view holds more weight than anyone elses here which is simply not true when it comes to a subject that simply is not black and white.
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Akrym
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Reply #42 April 9, 2004 1:55:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
This is always a hard one to discuss but the important ones always are. I have a rather mixed view here in that I would rather that women stop haveing sex if they don't want to get pregnent. No sex will equal no need for an aboration. I also am not willing to tell women what to do with there bodies and no matter how much I personely don't want women to get an aboration I honestly could never take away their right to get one.
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vernmeister2u
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Reply #43 April 9, 2004 3:05:49 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Actually, yes it does, you say that abortion magically solves all the problems of being raped, and it doesn't, the mother is still punished for being raped by having to go through the physical changes and dangers that go with pregnancy.


I didn't say it magically did anything. I said it was another option that you left out. Your only cure was abortion. And for that matter abortion isn't a "fool proof" solution either. The mother could die during the abortion procedure or she could become so depressed after the abortion that she could kill herself. So again I say, that changes nothing I said. No new ground covered.

VES
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messybuu
vernmeister2u
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Reply #44 April 9, 2004 3:18:49 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ok I will make it simpler vern since WE DONT ALL SHARE THE SAME RELIGIOUS BELIEFS than why should one belief try and impose its ideals on another? Even if your ideals have no religious basis, you shouldn't impose them on anyone else either. That includes all ideologies regardless of what they are. You believe it is murder, others do not, why is your way of looking at it better? The tone of your post is somewhat condescending which kind of tells me you feel that your point of view holds more weight than anyone elses here which is simply not true when it comes to a subject that simply is not black and white.


Of course I feel my point of view holds more weight. Why would I believe something if I didn't believe it was the right point of view. Kind of stupid not to. If you believe something that you think is wrong, let me know what it is. But like anything, idealogies are spread out and often "imposed" because we have to vote on rules that govern our behavior in society. But while we don't share the same religious views, we may all share other virtues or values that allows us to seek common ground in "spreading" our ideologies. The point I was making there is that if people from my side want to convince others of the wrongness (for lack of a better word) of abortion, the presumption that religion will accomplish that as a means is ineffective.

What makes my view "better" is that I choose to speak up for the rights of those who can not speak for themselves. Those that get thrown away out of convenience. And yes, I already know that you don't agree with that point of view. Unborn human babies are a sack of cells to you, just tissue.

However, the point of me post was not to reintroduce my point of view in the argument. I've already done that with what I believe to be compelling enough evidence. However, if it wasn't compelling enough the first 10 times, I doubt seriously it will make much difference the 11th time. Therefore, NO NEW GROUND IS BEING COVERED. My point was that BOTH sides, MINE and YOURS cover the same ground EVERY time it comes up. And EACH side has to point out the same ABC points it already made the last time like we all forget the arguments at the conclusion of each discussion. Each thread on this is as redundant as the last. That is the "condescending" point I'm making.

VES
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messybuu
shadesofgrey
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #45 April 9, 2004 3:30:05 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
VES:

While I agree that what is being said here has been rehashed a number of times, I have to wholeheartedly disagree that it is therefore "pointless to discuss." The point is that the more the issues get rehashed, the more likely it is that someone will leave their mantra behind and finally *see* the other person's point of view. I'm not saying they have to agree with it. Understanding what the other person is saying is not the same as conceding that they are right.

Understanding includes the use of non-inflamatory terms when discussing the issue. In other words, saying
Unborn human babies are a sack of cells to you, just tissue.
does nothing more than create a hostile environment. If you looked at the issue rationally, you might say, pro-lifers believe that the fetus is an unborn child while pro-choicers believe that the fetus is simply a grouping of cells.

Yes, it's an emotional debate. And the point of the debate is to try to convert others to your side, but you'll never convert anyone if you are simply spewing venom.
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messybuu
psychx
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Reply #46 April 9, 2004 3:37:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
And yes, I already know that you don't agree with that point of view. Unborn human babies are a sack of cells to you, just tissue.


I never said I agree with abortion so you are assuming I do. You should never base your opinions on assumptions. I disagree with abortion but I also disagree with taking away the right for women to choose what they want to do with their lives. Crash30920 in reply #34 said the sack of cells bit not me. I will agree that the same points are argued but I as I stated before I have never covered ground with you before. My ideals agree with your view on how abortion is wrong but I won't force it on others because in the end who am I to judge anyone else?
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vernmeister2u
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Reply #47 April 9, 2004 4:00:09 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
You should never base your opinions on assumptions.


I apologize for making an erroneous assumption about your beliefs. However, I think that there are many behaviors, to include abortion for convenience, which SHOULD be judged as wrong. If we never judge behavior, we have chaos. Anyone can be free to do whatever they like unless we judge behavior.

VES
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vernmeister2u
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Reply #48 April 9, 2004 4:01:03 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Understanding includes the use of non-inflamatory terms when discussing the issue. As to who I will or won't convince, I'll take my chances.


Then you should understand how inflammatory the IDEA of abortion is to some people. You are concerned with mere words, I'm concerned with lives.

VES
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vernmeister2u
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Reply #49 April 9, 2004 4:02:22 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I have made my point about how pointless and redundant this conversation is, so I again will leave to those who wish to continue.
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messybuu
shadesofgrey
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #50 April 9, 2004 4:03:46 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Then you should understand how inflammatory the IDEA of abortion is to some people. You are concerned with mere words, I'm concerned with lives.


You can state your position without spitting fire...plenty of people do it all the time. I'm only trying to help, but clearly your venom spewing ways have won others to your side in the past, so my advice is not needed. With that, I bid you a happy weekend.
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