How are you going to feel when the majority of the population looks at you and says that? When you run a farm and you can't hire people to work with you because you are too ignorant or stubborn to learn their language? The guy down the road takes a course a few hours a week and can out manage you.

This is already happening in Florida. I met a man today that is moving to my state because his part of Florida (Miami) is being taken over by the Spanish Culture. He and his mother who is now quite elderly says it's very difficult to converse with people down there. They said it's been on the ballot down there to change the language from English to Spanish many times but has yet to be successful. It's only a matter of time they said.

As I see the Muslims streaming into this country by the masses as well as into the European countries and having babies at a faster rate than either the Americans or the Europeans, do we just roll over and say ok the Arabic language is now the new "worldwide" language in all countries including our own?

I heard on the radio the other day that in the next 50 years the Muslims will represent 50% of the European population going by the birth rate and influx into the country.

I can see this happening quite easily. I believe it will happen. So I think we should all start teaching our children Arabic. So when they hire us, we can communicate with them.

As I see the Muslims streaming into this country by the masses as well as into the European countries and having babies at a faster rate than either the Americans or the Europeans, do we just roll over and say ok the Arabic language is now the new "worldwide" language in all countries including our own?

Oh no, not the Muslims! I know you're making a joke here at Baker's expense, but there's no way that Arabic could be a major world language. For one thing it has as many variants as Latin, and each is as more/less incomprehensible to each other as border French is to Stuttgardt German, but also not that many people speak it. Spanish is likely to take a role as a second language in the US within the next few centuries, but no matter how many people become Muslims or Mexicans English is likely to hold the prestige position in the linguistic strata.

Explaining the role of prestige languages in multilingual communities is probably a little overly indepth for this kind of forum, but trust me on this: English is likely to be top dog in the US for the indefinite term. It's the language of business, political power and technology. Hardly anything prestigious is expressed in lesser dialects of English, let alone Spanish, so you've got nothing to worry about if you're afraid for English.

If you're simply afraid you'll have to learn another language, don't worry - I'm sure there'll be some podunk town where you'll be able to live in fearful ignorance of change.

Listen to yourself. "Taking over" as if people speaking their own language in their own neighborhoods is a sin. You wouldn't think that way if a bunch of whitebread Americans moved into those neighborhoods, "diluteing" latino culture. Face it, it isn't us and them, it is just us. You choose not to communicate. Your friend chooses not to. That's your right, but it is also your right to deny yourself of many other advantages. Enjoy the results.

I'm trying very hard not to get ignorant on this subject. But I'll say this one more time....this is America! Make an effort to learn our lingo or leave! If the situation was reversed, using the Miami couple as an example. And if this was happening in Cuba, how long do you think the yankee invaders would get to stay? Fidel would have them thrown out on their ear in a hurry. As would Mexico. It's all well and good to stick up for someone who can't / doesn't want to speak our language. But put the shoe on the other foot before you speak about it. I be willing to bet "any" amount of money that they would not appreciate it. So why should we?

"I'm trying very hard not to get ignorant on this subject. But I'll say this one more time....this is America! Make an effort to learn our lingo or leave!"

Are you? I agree it is America, but they should do that just because you say so? Who's going to make them? You? I guess you'll need an interpreter to tell them, huh?

"And if this was happening in Cuba, how long do you think the yankee invaders would get to stay? Fidel would have them thrown out on their ear in a hurry."

Ah, Fidel. Good example to pattern one's behavior after.

"But put the shoe on the other foot before you speak about it. I be willing to bet "any" amount of money that they would not appreciate it. So why should we?"

I don't want their shoes on my foot. Last I heard our system was more fair, more free than theirs. You can hop on the boat, or stand there and wave bye, Dr. Guy, but you can't for a moment pretend that what you DON'T know makes you more viable.

You just don't have the ability to turn what you are saying about Mexicans around on yourself. Neither does KFC. The argument is "Why SHOULD I learn their language?" Duh. Because the fact is people who know it are better equipped.

*hic* dohn-day-estaaaaah... mon car keys, mon-soor... *hic*

*hic* dohn-day-estaaaaah... mon car keys, mon-soor... *hic*

Ha! Finally! Someone who's got as twisted a sense of humor as I do!

And sadly ... I have spoken to someone in a slurred, drunken mix of Spanish, French, German, and English ... And then my wife just shook her head wondering what I was upto and poured me into bed.

Chak:

Good for you; I'm happy to hear that you're doing so well. if I ever go to an Asian country (unlikely), I'll look you up and you can help me out by tranlating.
However, I know that it takes years to master the intricacies of any language, especially the arcane avenues of English, in which we often, impudently, imbue multiple meanings for one word, sometimes even using it as slang. I have on many occasions patiently waited, and even attempted to help (sorry of that makes me a "cultural supremacist", Baker) as a customer tried to sort out the right word. But if someone wants to go to another country, for whatever reason they should at least attempt to learn how to communicate, at least on a minimal level.
What some of you seem to be avoiding here is that fact that I stated, several times in fact, that I would be nice enough to do it for them.

(Sighs in exasperation)

Baker:

Why would the founding fathers have chosen French? They were English colonies.

Very true. I'm assuming that you're agreeing with this point of mine? Or are you simply using it in an attempt to point out my density?

The fact that they all spoke English doesn't prove they meant for it to be a national language,

Why wouldn't it be? I don't KNOW, of course, but still think that such practical men would have intended it to be so. Perhaps they'd have approved of an "impartial" official language; maybe they'd have liked us to revive Latin, or perhaps we could use Esperanto? Maybe we could get Jodie Foster's character of "Nell" from that movie to tutor us? A couple of identical twins to teach us their own "language"? Hmmm....no, the Founders spoke English, and they wrote their important political documents and such for their new nation in that language. So, I'm quite certain, from a standpoint of simple logic, that they would have intended English to be the language of that new nation. But then, I mainly speak only English, so maybe I'm just stupid or something.

We can be like the piddly cultural supremacists in France and Canada if you want, passing laws to make sure that no one "corrupts" our precious non-culture with other people's cultures. We'll be just as lame and inconsequential eventually as they are.

Your choice of words here, (which I can't help but note is in English...no doubt used because you're aware that the majority of people reading this speak and read it as a first language) would seem to indicate a bit of personal elitism and cultural condescension or pomposity.
Us lowly, white-trash Americans, with our mongrel non-culture and no actual tongue of our own. How gauche we. How culturally bereft.
Why shouldn't we simply allow our primary tongue, spoken by a dozen or more generations of our forebears, to be squeezed out by some other, more culturally superior language? Like Spanish, perhaps....yeah, there we go, Spanish. Why not?
After all, it was forced on the Mexican, Central and South American indians by the invading Spanish, right? Why not let our own native tongue be squashed in much the same manner? We have no right to it, after all; it wasn't ours to begin with, anyway---it came from England. Sounds like justice, don't it?

A Mexican comes to the United States, knowing they know no English, accepting the difficulties involved as a matter of course. We call him stupid.

You know something Baker, this quote again makes me think there's something wrong with you, lately. I never said they were stupid; not at all. I do think that they should at least try to learn SOME English, if their goal is to come here and assimilate into the people and (non)culture. That would be the smart thing to do. At least bring a Spanish-English dictionary to use.

** An American knows full well that a growing number of people in the US speak English *at best* as a second language, and know that they will very likely have to deal with them on a regular basis. Out of cultural obstinance, self-imposed ignorance, or just laziness we refuse to get the tools we need to communicate. We call ourselves morally right.

If I, for some insane reason, went to live in Mexico without learning at least some Spanish, they would consider me a stupid, and perhaps impudent, Gringo. But, because they're the "lesser", weaker people, we're supposed to accomodate them and smile, and welcome them fluently in their native tongue? Why?
They want to come HERE, where 82.1% of the people speak English as a first language. By the figures above, the closest competitor to that number is, indeed, Spanish, with 10.7%. That's a big gap. Eleven percent of the population is a lot of people, yes, but it's still in the vast minority. Let them learn our language if they want to come here. What the hell is so wrong with that?

It's the same thing. Both people know that they are going to have situations where knowing something other than their home language is necessary, and both decide not to undertake educating themselves in a way that benefits them. What happens to segments of the population that don't have the tools to compete?

Give me a break. You don't just wake up one day and run for the Border, Baker. It's a big decision and, like any other, would take some planning and preparation. Maybe some of that prep could be learning at least some English before swimming across the Rio Grande and cutting the fence? It wouldn't be that hard. I'm sure they could find a trusted someone to give them some pointers.
My wife's aunt and uncle went to Europe last year; before they went, they took some primary tutoring in basic Italian, French and German. They took with them on the trip a dictionary of each of those languages. Why? Beacause they knew they'd be interacting with people who spoke a foreign language. Sounds like you're a little culturally supremacist yourself, there, Baker, maybe assuming that no one in poor, little Mexico would have the "tools", opportunity or ability to learn the Big, Bad English.

Both the Mexican and the American deny themselves, one out of hardship, the other out of obstinance, and both will take a back seat to people who can communicate however they like. Adapt, or die. We told that to the American Indian children when we beat their language and culture out of them. We tell that to Mexicans when they come here.

Oh yes, the Noble Savage myth; the Great Red Man, just sitting there, bedecked with feathers, skins and beads, communing with Nature and getting along in splendid harmony with his fellow natives. Until the White Devil came along, that is. We brought nothing but duplicity, violence, disease and death.
Bullshit. They killed each other in brutal wars and political struggles, too, and for centuries; long before they'd ever heard of the White Man.
You know what, they also killed animals! And they shit and pissed in the woods! Raw, untreated sewage----and they'd just bury it! Or even, just leave it lay! And they had dumping grounds for their trash! How Environmentally Incorrect is all that?

We beat the American Indians fair and square, Baker. They fought us and we won. Yes, we conquered them, just like the Spanish conquered their cousins to the South, and forced them to assimliate. Not a happy thing, no, but that's the way it was back then. I think it's called Cultural or Social Darwinism, isn't it?
I wouldn't call their culture completely gone, though; I'm always seeing stuff on National Geographic, Discovery and the History Channel about Native American traditions and such, and how the tribes continue to observe them today, as they should.
But this debate isn't about a war or open military and political conquest; the invasion we're experiencing now is even more insidious. It's like a disease itself, really; like a virus quietly infecting the National Body from outside, invading our "cells" and forcing them to reproduce it. And somehow, people like you just want us to give in to it. Why? because it's the "right thing to do". Once again.....Bullshit.

How are you going to feel when the majority of the population looks at you and says that? When you run a farm and you can't hire people to work with you because you are too ignorant or stubborn to learn their language? The guy down the road takes a course a few hours a week and can out manage you. Adapt or die is just something the majority says to the minority. We've had 200 years of shoving it down other people's throats. We can be like France and become irrelavant with immigrants marching in the street, or we can embrace change and embrace enriching ourselves and let our culture honestly reflect our democratic composition.

Nice words. Tell it to the sleazy, greasy, wetbacked Beaner illegals who bought "Los Mariachis", an excellent Mexican restaurant here in town.
They took it over from the decent, legal immigrant family that originally owned and operated it. They let the quality of food and service slide, quickly ran the whole place into the ground, and a few months later two of them killed each other in the basement.....over a poker debt. I was so impressed with them.

But, that has nothing to do with English being our main language. Except of course, the fact that none of them spoke English; one of the main reasons service declined so rapidly.

The very best way to destroy America is continue following the Bush policies! Iraq Trade Energy Tax and Spend Jobs Border Security & Immigration Social Security Medicare Education

Hey, Colonel...get a life.

No, I was stating that it made sense that the first colonists spoke the same language because they were basically from the same place. As I said, you don't see a lot of black people on curling teams either, but that doesn't mean they pass stupid laws to keep them off. We created a nation that wasn't a homogenous "people" of a given ethnicity. Sorry.

Apology accepted. Separated by a common language, perhaps?

But, as I said, because they wrote the documents in the language they spoke at the time doesn't mean they intended the US to remain an English-only area. If they had intended it, I'm sure they'd have mentioned it.

Perhaps they didn't feel the need because they thought, incorrectly, it would seem, that the people for whom they were creating this nation would always have the ability to understand their obvious intent without having to be told, like spelling it out for children.
If they had done so, I'd bet you'd be bitching about how intolerant they were.

No, I speak English, and if someone wants to read what I write I figure they'll learn to read it. That doesn't work with your end of the argument. According to you, everyone ought to go to the trouble of writing in English, even if it isn't their first choice. It saves you the trouble of meeting the same demands you place on them...

No, Baker, it's the same thing.....if they can't read it but want to, they'll learn how. If they want to come to America and enjoy life here, they'll learn how. Why is it such anathema to you to make such people "work" for that "bread"? They work hard enough otherwise.
I think we're all finally seeing how Baker really feels about America. I know I am.

If just short of 30 million people doesn't seem like a lot to you, I'd hate to see what a lot is. As was posted elsewhere, whole segments of communities in the US are filled with people who only speak English when they have to. I guess we can just move somewhere more whitebread when enough of them move in near us...

Baker, in your steaming rage over my daring to oppose your obviously and vastly superior opinion on this topic, you seem to have overlooked the part where I said:

By the figures above, the closest competitor to that number is, indeed, Spanish, with 10.7%. That's a big gap. Eleven percent of the population is a lot of people, yes, but it's still in the vast minority.

30 million is a big number, but it's still a lot less than the number that claims English as its first language, which would be roughly 200 or so million. As I said before, majority rule USED to mean something. That something WAS intended by the Founders, by the by.

Now who is making who's point? You know you'll have to interact eventually with the millions of Americans that don't take your language, too.

My point was, that before going there, my wife's relatives were nice enough, and intelligent enough, to learn at least a little of the native languages first. As the immigrants who come here should do, for us.

That's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen you say, and frankly I feel a bit dirty even addressing it.

The truth sometimes hurts, don't it, Baker?

You can't hide what's in you even when you try to put a nice face on it. Eventually you get pissed and start ranting your bias against those "greasy, wetbacked beaners" don't you?

Well, I did mention the "decent, legal" immigrant family that owned the place before. They were good people. The people who took it over were not.
They were sleazy, greasy, wetbacked Beaner illegals.
Just as, for example, there are decent Blacks and there are Niggers, and decent Whites and White Trash (though you, Baker, seem to perceive us all as "niggers and white trash", just because we, as Americans, have no culture to call our own), there are decent Hispanic immigrants, and wetbacked Beaners. I can say this because, in the course of my job(s), I have encountered both types. But then, personal experience doesn't count for much anymore, especially if it runs against the grain of your own ideas, huh?

There's good and bad to every race, class and culture. It just often seems that the class of Hispanics that comes here illegally is often of the brand that has "no class", so to speak. There's a reason for this. We don't want their trash, so they're denied visas and green cards.

There's nothing wrong with me "lately", Dr. There's just a handful of folks here that pretend they give a damn about America, and pretend to be so common sense, but they won't tolerate anyone disagreeing with them without calling them anti-american.

I am calling YOU anti-American, Baker, because not much you've written lately, especially here, could exactly swell the heart, or bring a proud tear to the eye, of an American patriot. Sorry so many of us feel the need to disagree with Your Highness and his Mighty Opinion.

It doesn't matter how often someone agrees with you, Dr., the second they differ you're like "What's got into you?"

Look, man....I've never had a problem with you. We've been on the same side of many a topic, and that's cool. But I'm not the one who emptied the first bomb bay here because you disagreed with me, and I'm not the one who started squirting the bile and vitriole everywhere. I've been very nice up to this point, I think. It's you that's been the Blue Meanie here, not me.
So sorry to be concerned about someone I've come to consider, if not a "friend" (hard for me to do, without personal contact), at least a nice acquaintance whose input I like and admire. Usually.

This is a pointless excercise, because your side is doomed. Sure, most people in America will probably always speak English out of convenience. In the end, though, you're going to be up to your neck in "beaners" and Arabs, and Chinese, and every other culture you feel should be sublimated in favor of the great non-culture of American television. Like you said, it's one in ten now. In ten years it'll be one in 5 or one in 4, and folks like you will start talking about moving to Idaho and forming your own country again. The problem with that is always you'll never even agree with those people about everything, so you'll wonder what's gotten into them, too. In the end, people who feel the way you do seem to end up in a teeny little group, usually with the ATF sitting outside. Good luck with that.

Bile and vitriole.
Go and find the old Baker, the one we all liked. We'll gladly wait for him to come back.

There's nothing here that doesn't hold to all the stances I've taken in the past. This is a democracy, and if you want to pass all the little laws you want "protecting" your culture, fine, you do that.

Baker, all drama here aside, I'm only saying that people who want to come here and live should learn the national language---English, whether or not you feel like you want to acknowledge it as such or not. It really is no less than they'd demand of me in the reverse situation.
But I'm the bad guy, the Evil, Intolerant, White American Imperialst, for imposing a new language, my language, on them when they come here? I'm bad because I'm making them, people from, just perhaps, a "lesser" nation (I can say this because otherwise we'd be going there), do as the Romans do?
Even if, otherwise, they can do whatever they want, and I couldn't care less, as long as they didn't hurt anyone. Just learn English while they're doing it.

If that makes me an evil person, Baker, then I'm going to Hell. But then, I guess I'd fully deserve it in that case.

Rightwinger

You should wake up and smell the Roses. Your BOY is a looser!

Drmiler

you are a DUMB GRUNT

k....think this getting "Off topic" boys!!

BE NICE!!!