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amanasleep
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Please Explain Combat!

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February 20, 2006 2:33:57 PM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I do not understand it, and the manual is confusing, to say the least.

My question:

The manual states that the computer rolls values for attack and defence between 1 and the max value, but here: https://www.galciv2.com/Journals.aspx?AID=92779 it says that it rolls from 0 to the max value. This is a very improtant distinction! If all rolls have a minimum value of 1, then defence 1 always trumps attack 1. Otherwise attack always has a chance to do damage. Which is it?
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amanasleep
brigiton
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Reply #1 February 20, 2006 2:59:47 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
The manual was only refering to that specific instance if IIRC. There is always the possibility of a zero. The manual may have a mistake too since I dont know what you are refering too (pg #?) Several have already been pointed out. There is never a guarantee in combat. And there is never a guarantee in GalCiv2
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amanasleep
Supreme Shogun
Join Date 11/2005
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Reply #2 February 20, 2006 3:27:49 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Yes but what type of attack and what type of defence? Having Chaff (missile defense) against a laser attack (beam weapon) isn't very effective. If you had beam defense on the ship vs a laser attack, different story. That's a lot of what the thread linked was discussing.. if you had the wrong defence you got something for it (better than nada) but you'll be lucky to survive/limp away.
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amanasleep
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Reply #3 February 20, 2006 3:30:10 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Manual page 46, and most other posts on this subject, mention combat values ranging from 1 to max. You and the post cited say zero value is possible. Which is correct? It makes a big difference, especially at low tech levels or when combining different defenses. Any type of attack 3 vs defense 1/1/1 always fails according to the manual.
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amanasleep
VeryAngryDwarf
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Reply #4 February 20, 2006 4:08:23 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
I don't follow how having a possible "0" rolled on attack helps the attack 3 ship in your scenario achieve victory?

Also, with an attack 3, and a 1/1/1 defence, I believe the total defence will be 1 (+ square root of 1 or 0 +square root of one or 0). This means if you score a 2 or a 3 on the attack roll, you'll deal 1 or 2 damage per attack. Or does the square root rule round UP?
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amanasleep
Fraz86
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #5 February 20, 2006 4:18:12 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Also, with an attack 3, and a 1/1/1 defence, I believe the total defence will be 1 (+ square root of 1 or 0 +square root of one or 0). This means if you score a 2 or a 3 on the attack roll, you'll deal 1 or 2 damage per attack. Or does the square root rule round UP?

The square root of 1 is 1. Therefore the total defence value would be 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, so the attack should always fail (as far as I understand the damage rolling system anyway).

As for why it matters... if a zero roll is possible, then that would apply to the defence rolls as well (I assume). Therefore it would be possible for damage to be done in the above scenario.
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amanasleep
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Reply #6 February 20, 2006 4:24:29 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
If zero is not possible, then 1 attack vs. 1 defense always rolls 1 vs. 1 = no damage every roll.

The square root of 1 is exactly 1.

In any event, the point is that if the minimum roll for any type of defense is 1, then one of each type means that damage rolls for attacks of 3 or less do no damage.

edit: citizen fraz beat me to it
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amanasleep
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Reply #7 February 20, 2006 5:17:58 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Another thing I noticed is that the manual gives the following combat example as a "close call" when it appears to be totally one sided to me: 4 fighters each with 4 attack (no defence) and 12 hp vs 1 dreadnaught with 33 (!) attack (no defence) and 40 hp. To win this battle the fighters would have to roll max damage every round or assume that the dreadnaught did less than 12 dmg in a particular round. I would say the dreadnaught wins at least 90% of the time if not more.

With 1/1/1 defense the dreadnought might never take any damage at all!
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Laerk
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Reply #8 February 20, 2006 5:25:33 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Or does the square root rule round UP?


I've been looking for an answer to the rounding question too. If I have a non-optimal defense of say, 15, does that mean it's effectively 3? So would all non-optimal defenses from 9 to 15 basically be equal to 3?
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amanasleep
Wahngrok
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Reply #9 February 20, 2006 5:28:44 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
If I recall correctly the formula for defense is:

Roll(Def1) + Roll(sqrt(Def2+Def3))
and not
Roll(Def1) + Roll(sqrt(Def2) + Roll(sqrt(Def3))

with Def1 representing the optimal defense value for the attack type and Def2 / Def3 the non-optimal defense values. Roll(i) is resulting in a integer between 0 and i.

For the 1/1/1 defense example this would resolve to a defense roll between 0 and 2 which can be beat by a power 3 weapon (getting attack rolls of 0-3).

But it would be nice if one of the devs could clarify this point.

edit: The squareroot rounding issue was commented upon by a dev as being always rounded down.
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amanasleep
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Reply #10 February 20, 2006 5:31:42 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
I've been looking for an answer to the rounding question too. If I have a non-optimal defense of say, 15, does that mean it's effectively 3? So would all non-optimal defenses from 9 to 15 basically be equal to 3?


From what I've seen the answer is yes. It rounds down in all cases. In the case of 1 defence rounding is unnecessary since the square root of 1 is 1.

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amanasleep
Laerk
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Reply #11 February 20, 2006 5:41:47 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Another question that I didn't see an answer for in the manual is, does damage affect the performance of ships at all? Or are ships at 100% effectiveness until they hit 0 hitpoints at which point they're destroyed?
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amanasleep
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Reply #12 February 20, 2006 5:46:39 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Practical vs. Theoretical - *disclaimer: only trying to help put it in perspective*

At the beginning of the game when you first get weapons, its more than likely you can only fit one or two onto a ship. Same goes for defences. There just isnt enough room to have a 1/1/1 defence ship. Also worth mentioning at this point you may not have enough room for a weapon if you put in defense first. Engines? Stick with the base ones, you still get movement points if you dont throw on any extra ones. Now you see my point.

By the time you could practically fit a 1/1/1 in your hull you probably still arent going to be able to carry a weapon.
You can say concentrate on one attack type and one defense type in your ship and be better off. My research recommendations is you pick 2 lines not 1(like beam and missiles or beam and gun) same goes with defence.

Also, if your ship class doesn't have enough oomph to get the job done alone, that's what fleets are for.
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amanasleep
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Reply #13 February 20, 2006 5:47:27 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Another question that I didn't see an answer for in the manual is, does damage affect the performance of ships at all? Or are ships at 100% effectiveness until they hit 0 hitpoints at which point they're destroyed?


Yes. 100% effective until destroyed.
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amanasleep
amanasleep
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Reply #14 February 20, 2006 5:47:28 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
If I recall correctly the formula for defense is:

Roll(Def1) + Roll(sqrt(Def2+Def3))
and not
Roll(Def1) + Roll(sqrt(Def2) + Roll(sqrt(Def3))

with Def1 representing the optimal defense value for the attack type and Def2 / Def3 the non-optimal defense values. Roll(i) is resulting in a integer between 0 and i.

For the 1/1/1 defense example this would resolve to a defense roll between 0 and 2 which can be beat by a power 3 weapon (getting attack rolls of 0-3).

But it would be nice if one of the devs could clarify this point.

edit: The squareroot rounding issue was commented upon by a dev as being always rounded down.


So you are saying that the minimum value is zero for a roll? If so, OK, but that contradicts the manual. If the sub optimal defences are added together before taking the square root, but min roll = 1, then the principal is still the same, just with lower marginal utility, since the 1/1/1 defence would only guarantee no damage vs 2 attack.
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Wahngrok
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Reply #15 February 20, 2006 5:49:46 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
If the sub optimal defences are added together before taking the square root, but min roll = 1, then the principal is still the same, just with lower marginal utility, since the 1/1/1 defence would only guarantee no damage vs 2 attack.

While the effect is small with low numbers it gets quite noticeable with higher ones. Imagine having 8/8 in non-optimal defenses. This would resolve to maximum rolls of 4 for the first equation (which to my knowledge is being used) and 8 for the second one.
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amanasleep
Dracil
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Reply #16 February 20, 2006 5:57:13 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Um, something to keep in mind. Even if you have 1/1/1 defense, it still rolls 1d3, not 1d1+1d1+1d1
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Nastavnik
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Reply #17 February 20, 2006 6:03:13 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I have another question on combat: when a fleet is attacked (either by another fleet or a single ship) is the first ship fired at in the defending fleet always the one with the more hit points? and then, when it is destroyed the attackers fire on the next ship, or do all ships in a fleet fire their first volley at ship A, then second volley at ship B?
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Wahngrok
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Reply #18 February 20, 2006 6:16:02 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Um, something to keep in mind. Even if you have 1/1/1 defense, it still rolls 1d3, not 1d1+1d1+1d1

I believe it's 2d1 in this case but could be wrong.

I have another question on combat: when a fleet is attacked (either by another fleet or a single ship) is the first ship fired at in the defending fleet always the one with the more hit points? and then, when it is destroyed the attackers fire on the next ship, or do all ships in a fleet fire their first volley at ship A, then second volley at ship B?

The fleet picks the ship with the highest threat for it's attacks (calculating some kind of attack potential / easiest to destroy ratio). When it is destroyed the remaining attacks will be fired at the next target.

See also image at this Link.

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Nastavnik
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Reply #19 February 20, 2006 6:55:19 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Thanks Wahngrok
I remember reading something about that. I asked because in a recent fleet battle (beta5) I had the clear impression that the enemy's ship were firing at my ship with the highest hitpoints, even though it was a "small" ship while there were 2 medium class ones in the fleet with it which were far more dangerous as far as I could see (more attack & defense but brand new while the small one was somekind of veteran with +/- 45 hitpoints but very low attack. I guess I'll be doing some checking tomorrow
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amanasleep
amanasleep
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Reply #20 February 20, 2006 9:19:37 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Um, something to keep in mind. Even if you have 1/1/1 defense, it still rolls 1d3, not 1d1+1d1+1d1


Not according to the manual. The manual gives a specific example where having 2 shields and 9 armor against beam attacks gives you a roll of 2-5, not 1-5.
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amanasleep
Hobelhouse
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Reply #21 February 20, 2006 10:16:38 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Thanks Wahngrok
I remember reading something about that. I asked because in a recent fleet battle (beta5) I had the clear impression that the enemy's ship were firing at my ship with the highest hitpoints, even though it was a "small" ship while there were 2 medium class ones in the fleet with it which were far more dangerous as far as I could see (more attack & defense but brand new while the small one was somekind of veteran with +/- 45 hitpoints but very low attack. I guess I'll be doing some checking tomorrow


If this is true it sounds very exploitable. You just build a ship with an assload of hp and defence and some dinky ships with few hp and high attack and you win.
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Nastavnik
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Reply #22 February 21, 2006 4:58:14 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
If this is true it sounds very exploitable. You just build a ship with an assload of hp and defence and some dinky ships with few hp and high attack and you win.


That was exactly my concern when asking the question: having one big ship with a lot of defenses and very low attack and a lot of fighters with guns and no defenses or engines. But even if it works it still is a gamble, because if the full defenses ship get destroyed the others will be taken out with a single shot.
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amanasleep
Peace Phoenix
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Reply #23 February 21, 2006 6:36:02 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
having one big ship with a lot of defenses and very low attack and a lot of fighters with guns and no defenses or engines.

Well, the fighters are the ones which are the most dangerousn but easily dispatched. So they will surely be targeted.
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