Customization...

Equilibris

Dwiggs

CBM

Ya, i gotta say hats off to you developers for listening to us rant and rave. polls are iffy but why don;t we have a poll about this question? it's hotley debated and i don't think it will end any time soon.

Whichever option wins said poll should get the majority of focus. I do want more Lore and less custom races, but both should get some focus.

+1

This either/or option is mildly distressing.  Personally I want to tinker, so the 2nd option suits me - but whatever I create isn't going to be any kind of public draw for new players.

I think long-term support for modding is important to extend the overall shelf-life of the game, with primary examples coming from the likes of the various Neverwinter Nights Persistent Worlds as well as stand-alone and multiplayer module adventures.  Or the Fall from Heaven conversion for Civ IV, which in at least a few cases was the sole driving factor in a purchase decision to buy the core game.  These are exceptional examples - but that's what I'm hoping for from Elemental modding.

The two work in synergy, where new players can help motivate development modding - either through new ideas and feature requests, or through bringing in new players that are talented modders.

Summing up: Option 1 draws the initial majority of the player base, while option 2 contributes as a catalyst to maintain new players coming into the game that for whatever reason didn't pick it up at release.  That's my theory.

I don't know which way to go - but I think it is worth exploring some combination of both, if you also believe modding can help drive a second (and third...and fourth) wave of sales.

I made this reply to AlphaLegion in another thread but I thought some of the points were valid enough to be included in this conversation as well.

I can understand that, my friend. But, My custom made races kicked the ass all over the map when I stacked the ones I made against the stock empires. I custom made every ship, I custom wrote the diplomacy text, I inserted the pics of the races from my shows. I knew the depth of the lore from watching it in my favorite shows over the course of a lifetime. You don't really think I cared about the "Yor" or "Dark Yor" and why one was "Dark" when compared to fighting a war with all my favorite races who's Lore I've known and loved for years?

I'll have to dig out my mod, I do still have it I just don't have it installed as I've upgraded my OS since then. Still, the AI my races used was the same AI that all the stock races used. I just made my own personalities. That though was a Mod. With Elemental a lot of that wouldn't need to be "Modded" in the first place as the game already supports a aspect close to this. Those of us who are backing the "Customization" front want it for the art assets. We want it so it's easier for us to make the game look and play the way we want when we get bored of the stock races. Believe me those stock races will get boring, real fast. Contrary to what a few replies in this thread have said, I don't see most people learning a new programming language just so they can do some minor tweaks to a game. 99% of people who play games don't do that nor would they. They'll just buy a new game.

I'm all for Elemental Expansions as well but if there's even a slight chance we can get those assets now instead of waiting for some expansion I'll take them now. Especially considering the First Thing modders like me are going to do will be to add races. Do you have any idea how AGGRAVATING it would be to bust my ass making Elves and Dwarves and all that other stuff and then have Stardock come out with a "Races Expansion" 6 months later? I'd be so pissed after doing all that work for nothing I'd probably never buy a Stardock product again and I'd go on a pirating spree distributing everything they make just to get back at them for my lost effort. That might be a little extreme but that's about close to how pissed off I'd be if they make a expansion that makes all my hard work not matter. I'd rather have those assets now for all the Awesome Mods that will be around when people quickly get bored of the stock races.

I Love deep Fleshed Out Lore and a Good Story, but, to me those don't take precedence over Fun and Game-Play. I'm not worried about the Game-Play. I have faith Stardock will pull that part off just fine, especially with all of us here giving them our input. I think it will be a lot more fun for the game though to have this diversity and I don't even need to mention how much more life and replayability it will bring to the table at the end of the day. No matter how amazing the Lore might be, in the end, it's just fluff. There's only so many times I can play through the same story before it gets old and boring. LotR is a Amazing Story. I wouldn't watch the movies every day though, they'd get real boring real fast. The same will happen with the Lore for Elemental. It will be Awesome, but it will get old. The Freedom to create is where Elemental's Staying Power will be just as it was for the Gal Civ series. Stardock is known for it's customization abilities. It needs to ride that train as long as it can. Stardock isn't known (to me at least) for groundbreaking storytelling. It's also not known for it's unique Game-Play. There are a million space strategy games on the market some of which have almost the same mechanics in every respect as Gal Civ 2, they just don't have it's amazing ship editor. There are a million fantasy war games on the market,Many of which with Amazing Depth and Lore that makes Elemental's look like a kindergarten story book, but they won't have Elemental's customization.

I see your need for Lore and I do agree with it, but I have to disagree and say that it's in no way "restraining". Quite the opposite in fact as it will truly set the game free and set it above all the other fantasy war games on the market.

Great discussion!

Another post transplant.

I can understand all that, indeed. Some of those points are things I've already broached concerns on as have some others in fact. I can answer those with the information I've found out so far. Hope this helps a little.

1 A) There was a Dev post just today Frogboy made regarding the AI. I think he's going to do a pretty decent job and that he's learned a lot since Gal Civ 2's days. This time he has help too. I could get a challenge out of Gal Civ 2's AI if I set it up the right way (and on Hard). Granted, no AI will ever be as good as a human player without cheating in a game like this.

2 A) I think that all depends on how it's done really. What most people expect is purely cosmetic changes as for Game-Play everyone will have access to the same skill pool. Frogboy has already mentioned they have a specific algorithm to handle just what the children of mixed races look like for the Dynasty system, so they've handled that already. As for the mixing of races in cities it'll be based on a percentage of the population in the city, or they simply won't let the races mix in cities. A different City for a different Race but they are still part of your faction. This will allow the player to make armies made of various races and provide a lot of depth to strategic combat as well.

3 A) People don't seem to be seeing that Customization is already a heavy aspect for them. A lot of people have said the only reason they like Stardock Games is because of the heavy customization they allow Without Having to Mod. Buildings for instance. I've seen 3 or 4 posts in the last week of people saying "Hey, it would be cool if I could design the buildings in my town etc etc. I'm just assuming these people don't know that Elemental will ship with a Building Editor that can be accessed from in game. Here's a Pic of it.

When I think of what a Proper Race editor should be, without it being too complicated of course, is something like the building editor. Have a picture of a paper doll and have a moderate selection of pre-built body parts you can put on (if you want to). Notice even in the normal game No-One is Forced to use the Building Editor to make their buildings look the way they want, but it's there none the less. There's No Reason I can see why Races can't be that easy as well. In the boxes above where there are building pieces just have body parts. Maybe have a set of wings or two, one demon one angel, three or four sets of legs and arms, and a few heads. One with pointy ears, another that looks like a lizard or cat, one with horns. Keep it basic. With something like this implemented for Body Parts once Stardock gets the ball rolling us Modders can make new pieces to add to the collection.

No One wants a racial system that's overly complicated, people just want options to make things look the way they want them to look without having to learn how to use expensive 3D modeling programs to do it. People like you and me who do know enough to Mod games are the rare minority. That's why a lot of people like Stardock games, because they change things without needing a degree in computer engineering to do it.

They can still do a simple system and keep the deep lore and make factions that are different and have a style all their own. If people want deeper lore then that they have a nice thick Novel to read that's nothing but lore.

 i gotta say ravens idea is interesting, he cleared up a lot, but why can't you focus on both say... 75% Lore focus and then a very besic race creation.

Raven - I commend you for your dedication towards creating customized races complete with backstory (in your head or otherwise) that feel at least as complete as the official races or factions included in games.

But the fact of the matter is, you are in the minority. Sure, I play using custom races/factions more often than I play straight-up unmodified stock factions in games, but I'm still strongly in favor of fleshing out the stock factions and leave more customization features for expansions and the like. My reasons are these:

1) I, and probably most people, would usually use stock races/factions as templates for custom races instead of building them from the ground up. The better developed, varied and flavorful the stock factions, the easier and more rewarding that practice is.

2) This is the biggest reason: my opponents. I don't often play multiplier at all, in any type of game, and I'm less likely to in a TBS. Therefore, my opponents are pretty much always AI. No matter how high your opinion of Brad or the rest of the Stardock team, there is no way the AIs will work as well for some random custom faction as they will for the stock factions; and I am a big fan of playing against factions with personalities that differ based on their story and background - it makes the world feel alive.

In GalCiv II, I probably played as a customized faction (including minor modifications to a stock faction) 75% of the time, maybe more. On the other hand, all of my opponents were always stock factions. Who my opponents are, how they behave, what they do, how flavorful and diverse they are just as important to me as the faction that I'm playing as. I never played against custom factions because it just wasn't as fun; the AI (strategy and personality) was built with the stock races and mind. Tacking the AIs onto Random Custom Race #82 is fine, it works, but it is an inferior experience.

If the stock races/factions suffer in order to give me a little more customization, I'll get bored faster because the world I'm playing in just won't feel as alive. 

3) There will still be customization; we have customization already this early in the beta and I bet (and hope) it is expanded on before release. It's not massive, it probably won't allow you to create a new faction that plays completely differently than any of the stock factions, but it'll still provide variation to keep things interesting until Stardock can add in more customization or serious modders start produces high quality custom factions through regular modding. To be honest, I can't imagine myself ever downloading someone else's custom race that was made using pre-game custom race/faction tools. The sort of custom races I would download are the sort that would probably require genuine modding anyways.

4) Customization can be added in later. What matters in the short term after release is that the game is flavorful, engaging and developed enough that reviewers can't fault it and that people feel invested in the game world once they start playing. To that end, the stock factions should feel real, they each need to provide a meaningfully different way of playing the game, and they each need to provide different and varied challenges to the player when encountered as computer players. In GC II, if I will play very differently depending on who starts near me - if the Drengin are my neighbors, I will make sure not to put off military technology and ship building, while if my nearest neighbors are the Korx I'll probably prioritize my economy.

Customization is indeed very important to longevity, but if the core game feels incomplete or bland, then not enough people will stick around long enough for such longevity to really matter. On the other hand, if the core game is rich enough that the playerbase remains large for a reasonable amount of time, that gives Stardock the opportunity to release further customization options as part of an expansion and thus get the longevity we all hope Elemental will have.

Sacrificing the short-term success for the sake of longevity will result in neither. If one needs to be sacrificed for the other, extreme customization should give way to ensuring the short-term success. Because if the game is successful, the longevity can be dealt with later. If all the bits and pieces are there for people to turn the game into exactly what they want, but the game isn't rich or developed enough that people really get into it, then that potential won't be realized.

Sorry for the long rant... It's 4 AM and I'm procrastinating!

What I find confusing - not to say hilarious - with this original post and the following discussion is that not one of us is able to say what SD actually is asking about. So the answers and comments are more a reflection of what's going on in the head of the responder (what he is dreaming about, although a reader cannot be sure what he actually means) than any clear answer to a question (and that goes for me as well of course ...) 

Maybe Frogboy just wanted something fun to read after all that hard work ... Or maybe they are trying to figure out what people really want by letting us rave along ...   

No, seriously, like already pointed out, why would you need to eliminate the race distinctions in order to work further on the factions? Did anyone answer on that basic point? It seems just like a proposal from SD, but there is no clear logic of "either-or" behind.

And there is no common understanding of what "lore" means. Many people are voting for more info on the factions because, as they say, they want unique factions with well developed game play differences. But in the original post, SD says we are here talking about assets on "art and writing". For me that would rather mean backstory - no gameplay at all ... Also, does "art" mean/include the in-game graphics, or is it just some illustrations of characters etc that might end up e.g. in the limited edition booklet?

In fact, as goes for game-play, the word "code" is only mentioned in the option for more customization.

If you read the original post this way, for me that indicates: option 1: more fluff and Option 2: more liberty to change the gameplay options. 

I don't think there is any consensus of what people mean when they are "voting" / choosing between the two options, so frankly, how could anyone make much out of the discussion ... 

Maybe we'll be wiser at reply number 200, but I'm not so sure ...

Yes I understand that, but it still doesn't explain what races has to do with it. For me, it just means SD wants to skip the canon races and try to make the forum tell them to do so by saying: otherwise you won't get any good lore.

If it is a question of having different building styles for each faction and those type of assets OR having everyone have smae similar buildings but aving the assets to do easier in game race customization - I change my vote for more customization over loare/faction development.

It really boils down to specifically what we are gaining/losing from each choice.

But see, you have to take into account the demographic. If Stardock were making a game meant solely to appeal to the people that are likely to frequent these forums or participate in the beta, then it would come out much, much differently. The people on these forums are typically going to be much more... let's say "aggressive" about the game. We will probably on average use many more mods and customize our games to a significantly higher extent than the average targeted audience. We'll on average delve deeper into the options and tools provided to us, and therefore our collective opinion as a board is heavily biased. 

We are not a good statistical sample of the people who will (hopefully) buy and play and fall in love with Elemental. If people like you and me and the average forumer here do turn out to be the main audience for Elemental, then it will have failed dismally.

Yes, it is possible to create a custom race that synergizes just as well or even better with a certain AI than even the stock race it was intended for, but that is not the norm. If a custom faction has been built around peaceful bonuses and is not well suited for war, and then is given an aggressive or otherwise inappropriate AI personality, that faction will be failure. To go back to GC 2, imagine the Korx with the AI of the Drengin.

And just as importantly, there is the personality. Just as bad as the Korx, and their tech tree better suited to areas other than warfare, with a warlike AI is the Korx with some arbitrary personality. At least in GC II, each AI was coded for a specific race (to account for changes and mods and what-have-you, but the personality and behavior was specifically built in for that race). Sure, if you want to build a custom faction you can of course choose the most applicable AI.

So yes, lovingly hand-crafted customized factions will work just fine. If you put a lot of time into making interesting and unique customized factions/races, thinking up backstories and where they fit in with everything, then encountering that custom faction in game will be just as fun, if not more so, then interacting with a stock race. But most people, I bet, won't spend so much time just creating and brainstorming factions to play against. If the stock factions are bland, they will get bored and lose interest (I will get bored...) because their games will be largely against bland and uninteresting opponents (relatively speaking, of course).

Playing against a hastily made custom faction doesn't have nearly the charm of playing against stock factions that have had hours and hours of professional care put in to develop them. Random custom faction #27 has no soul, it's just there in the world, but it has no connection to it. It's a faceless enemy (or maybe ally); it's much more fun to interactive with factions that actually belong in the world, that have history, preconceptions and prejudices against other races or factions etc.