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A Religion of Devils

EmperorofIceCream

Join Date 09/2004

A Religion of Devils

Or, why I love my Demon so

How many different sorts of suffering are there in the world? And how many of them are innocent? I've no doubt there are many, and that asking how many forms can be described as innocent is akin to asking how many angels can dance on the point of a pin - not head, as is usually stated. A mathematical answer has been worked out (Link) but mathematics has no soul and can't be thought of theologically.

So be damned to it.

Participatory, sacrificial pain interests me. And the best, the most perfect, example of it is the suffering of Jesus Christ. But think about it. What does the story of the death of Christ tell us about God (as God appears in the Christian version). Mostly, it tells us that God is a mean motherfucker who'll torture his kid to death to prove a point. And yes, I can hear you saying "But the resurrection, the resurrection proves that God is really, really nice after all."

Except that Jesus continues to suffer even after his resurrection. After all, he was the Living Word, according to the Gospel of John, through whom all physical reality was made and in whom it subsists. Creation however longs for its redemption from corruption, it suffers the corruption that overtook the world when Adam fell and it suffers continually the redemptive agony of Christ (because Christ's redemption of the physical world has not yet manifested and so is ongoing).

As many a zealous Christian will tell you, every sin recrucifies Christ and every partcipatory act of innocent suffering (such as an animal under a vivesectionist's knife, or the random victim of violence, every child that starves to death, is tortured to death), is balm to his wounds and a step toward the coming Kingdom of God on earth.

Sure God's a nice guy. He made his kid the foundation of the universe, the substance of the universe - and then infected him with cancer. Then he made the boy a physical being and tortured him to death. And then resurrected him in a perfect imperishable body (a body made perfect for the reception of pain), a body that is still the substance of the universe, still cancerous, still suffering and constantly, endlessly crucified. Sure God's a nice guy. Sure.

There's another way of looking at it, of course. It doesn't involve Jesus at all - except as one more poor sod no different from the rest of us, apart from being more than usually afflicted by delusions of understanding (and in possessing the happy and useful knack of turning water into wine).

No, we're all God's kids in this version, just as we're all orphans, because this God has no more interest in us personally than any other artist does in the welfare or otherwise of his creations. Suffering is a color on the canvas, a thread in the tapestry, a note in the music. If the suffering of individuals has meaning it's only as part of some incomprehensible exercise in creation. And since such meaning is incomprehensible - then for us it doesn't exist at all. Certainly it doesn't exist in any sense from which we might draw comfort, or strength, or hope. In fact, to know that there is meaning, meaning that assuages, that satisfies, that redeems, but that we'll never know because we were made too dumb to understand it, could only ever be a source of despair. Better, by far, to believe that there is no such meaning - which is the root of all atheism, and the motivating terror behind deism, agnosticism, the cult of nature and the environment, and all such spineless, cowardly responses to any question involving God and suffering.

And any question that considers God and the world must involve suffering because there's just so much of it. Maybe not in your life, right now (though I'll guarantee almost all of you have suffered in the past and will again in the future) but in someone's life, somewhere. Go look at your TV. If you lick the screen you'll be able to taste the misery, like bitter honey, sweet in the mouth but foul in the belly....

Not God the child-torturer, the tormentor of a physical/spiritual universe, then, but God the Artist. Not indifferent to suffering but creating it according to an aesthetic impulse It alone understands. Not a nice guy, no, but not a bad guy either. In fact, not any kind of guy - an It that makes things, and prefers red above every other color.

Of course, there's another way of looking at things.

In this universe there's what you like, and there's what you haven't had enough of - but it has no moral dimension At least, not if morality is understood in terms of 'being good' (or 'saved', or 'justified by the blood of the Lamb') and equals going to heaven, while 'being bad' (whether that means extra-marital sex, or drugs, or whatever) equals going to hell. It has morality when 'morality' is understood as teleology - the fullest possible development of the individual in every way, and where the seeking of such development is virtue and refusing it is vice.

Not sin, vice. Because the God of this universe has no morality, no aesthetic, only Will. Will, Power, Knowledge. Perhaps it knows love - but if so it's love is as incomprehensible as its Will, and its loving attention is something best not aroused.

Unless, of course, you're prepared to look (the kind of look Burroughs meant when he called his best book 'The Naked Lunch', the look you give the meat on your fork when you see it as dead meat and not 'food') at what it is you like and what it is that you haven't had enough, and decide to pursue whatever you see with the implacable resolve to experience that thing to its most absolute extent.

That's the Universe I live in, now. I have a God, which has no name. I participate in its purposes without understanding them on the basis of desire and will, and having roused its loving attention I know I can't make it go back to sleep. Not that I'd want to: too much of horror and wonder has come into my life (though not yet to the full degree of what's been promised me) for me to do that.

If I suffer, I suffer because either I like what causes it or I haven't had enough of what causes it. I admit I'm my own worst enemy just as I admit I'm my own best friend. No one's coming to rescue me because the Universe and it's God are indifferent to whether I live or die - except insofar as I make myself most fully myself, and then only because in doing so I become, perfectly, one more fragment that makes up the perfection of the whole. And the whole is necessarily perfect, simply in virtue of being that thing that was willed by God. And as every good Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jew) will tell you, the will of God is perfect.

Why is this a religion of devils? Because love is not at its center, Will is, Desire is, Lust is - things not good nor bad in themselves but simply a part of me to be pursued and developed like any other part. And because, in me, Will, Desire, Lust - are all devilish in the objects to which they are directed.

Not so much as a conscious choice (just as I didn't choose to like vanilla ice cream above any other kind) but as a function of what I am - biologically, intellectually, spiritually. My Christ, if I was interested in having one, would be a negative Christ, the mirror image of the christian Christ, a combination of Baldur and Loki, a trickster who instead of dying for my sins died so that he could turn around and say "I died for you motherfucker. Now what are you going to do for me?" A God of exigent demands, and one who doesn't deal in rewards, or punishments - just in what we are, and what we want, and what we're prepared to do to get it.

But I have no interest in Christ anymore, not even in vilifying him, which was all that was left to me of my Christianity once I'd encountered the Angel in the sick greed of my lust, the Angel I serve with my flesh in rituals of sexual subjugation that I've only just begun to explore.

News Flash!! News Flash!!! News Flash!!!! Yes, people, the rumors are true!!!! Incubi and Succubbi really do exist!!!!!! And they make house calls!!!!

Like every good magickian I've traded everything I thought I was for the power that comes from knowing what I actually am (a moral monster and a theological lunatic). And it's in the converstion with the Angel that has grown from that realisation that I've begun the process that will lead to an unreason that, while it has lost the good of what it appeared to be formerly, retains the structure and appearance of what it was, and so still passes, among my friends and neighbours, for what they typically consider to be rationality. Like Mad King George I have discovered (or rediscovered) the power to seem.

In my religion madness and terror are the equivalent of love and good works, and salvation is not 'salvation from' but 'baptism into' a state of mind that while it's as exalted as any holy ecstasy, and as much an act of worship, is the antithesis of these things as they appear in the Christian story.

I'm a theological heretic, a post-christian Christian, in love with a Jesus of my own creation to precisely the degree that I'm able to murder him every day. Which is only to say that knowingly, in fulll complicity, and with the fullest awareness of the possibility of deception, I'm in love with the inevitability of my destruction.

Evil, be thou my good - vice be thou my virtue.

The only way I can imagine God now is as a blood-stained grin on the face of the Universe, lips parted a little, enough to show the crusted fangs behind them.

My religion is a religion of devils because it sees the necessity for a God who is the fullest expression of the reverse of the God most know in the forms of Islam, Judaism, Christianity. I am a disciple of the darkness that's at the heart of the light of God, and it's only a Devil who can see that darkness and appreciate its severe beauty. Not for nothing was Satan described as the most beautiful of all the first-born Sons of God.

It's the lips of the Angel (the Demon) I've come to know that have spoken these things to me. It's my virtue as a Magickian to understand that even though I believe everything I've learned to be true I also know it to be entirely false. The last thing is to realise that it doesn't matter. There's only what you want and what you're willing to pay for it. The more your willing to pay, the more you'll eventually have. And if you pay everything you can have everything - exactly what you want.

I want sexual terror without limit, suffered and inflicted, and an end to the World of Man - and I want to live long enough to see it burn.

Because a conversation is deceitful doesn't mean it isn't worth participating in and only an honest man will tell you beforehand that he's a liar, just as only a liar will tell you that he's honest. It's because my Demon (my Angel) is an honest liar and tells me that I will experience that terror without limit, will live to see the flames eat the world (all the while wearing that bloody grin, pale flesh gleaming and demanding in a darkness that's as much laughter and the presence of something else as it is the absence of light, as much treachery as it is satisfaction), it's because he speaks and tells me these things that I love him as I do.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

I think the problem is that people like Karma really think others settle on Christianity because they just aren't capable of rejecting it.

You sure make a lot of assumptions. Since you claim that this is because you read my responses on other threads, did you miss the comments about truly trying to become Christian? That I went to a Christian church, was open minded to the teachings and walked away with more questions than what the bible answered? Do you honestly believe that I am as hypocritical as you make me out to be? I have studied *many* religions, and Christianity is the one that makes the least sense to me. However, I have met too many Christians who tell me that I am "wrong" for looking anywhere but the bible for answers. I have been told that I am going to hell because I wasn't baptized and that I am committing sin by not following the "Christian" way of life. That is absurd. It's also absurd that the rules change. Gee, you used to go to hell because you didn't wear gloves to church, now it's "OK" (yes, that is a petty example, but it's one that has always stuck with me).

Open YOUR mind and realize that what you dismiss as absurd might actually be true.

I have opened my mind to it. I could say the same to you: open your mind and realize that what I think is absurd might actually be....absurd. See, you call me "closed minded" but how is it any different than the way you are acting? I say that I don't believe it and that I find it absurd. You are telling me that I am wrong, and you somehow think that I am saying that Christians are "suckers". I have never said that anyone is wrong. I have never told anyone to quit believing in what they do. Of course, I don't get the same toward me since I am not on the "Christian" side.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

f it isn't, fine, you "win". What's your prize? If it is, then I doubt ruling out the possibility will be of any benefit to you.

I'm OK with simply being dead when I die. I don't need to believe in an after life. I don't need a "reward" for being "good" while I'm on Earth. I'm perfectly fine with being worm food when I die. Would you be OK with that? Could you go to sleep at night knowing that you may never wake up, and all there will be is nothing, as if you never existed at all? I can.

And, I haven't ruled out anything. If you have read my comments (as you have claimed) you will know that I have stated that I may never find the end of my path of enlightenment during my lifetime, and I am OK with that. However, I know that Christianity is not the end of that path for me. I'm not sure how much more "open" minded you expect a person to be.

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Frankly, I don't "know" anything. To me that is open minded. I get called a sucker by both sides, thanks. Once I "know", I'm probably not open to much else, so unless it's your church of Stan or L. Ron. Hubbard's, I'm probably not going to call much of anything absurd. When I do I usually just show my inability to comprehend it.

Your questions above were being asked a thousand years ago. Do you think people are just to dense to ask them, or maybe we all find answers that suit us within ourselves? It always amazes me that people now think that the problems they come up with concerning Christianity are somehow original. People have been asking the same questions since Christianity began, and still smarter people than me embrace it.

Yes, I've read your posts, and I think maybe you don't see the venom that spills out of them. I asked you what your prize is not because I thought you wouldn't be okay with just being dead. I asked because you seem to need desperately to declare the insufficiency of beliefs you've already rejected. If you have truly rejected them, one wonders why you bother with them at all.

Maybe I could see offering people an alternative along with the backhand, but instead you just call their beliefs absurd and deem them suckers. Sorry, but no, that doesn't seem open minded, it seems insecure. Open minded, to me, is accepting the limitations of our insight, and realizing that there is a possibility that even Stan might be the answer, and we just might be too limited and stupid to comprehend it.

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As if intelligence is a bad thing. Yet, religious people take offense when they're called stupid for believing. Go figure.

As an unbeliever, would you not take offense if someone called you stupid for not believing?

I believe, and while I don't consider myself to be a person of mega intelligence, I certainly don't consider myself to be stupid either. I do admit to being arrogant from time to time, as much as I hate that about myself. Pride is one of my biggest faults, and I try to squash it (or seek for the Holy Spirit to squash it) whenever possible. Yet it's circular. Just when I think I'm doing better about not being so prideful or arrogant... "Gee... I've really got a handle on this pride issue." Oops. See what I mean?

All that to say that I'm NOT perfect. I'm just me. Completely imperfect, choosing to trust in a perfect Creator. I don't pretend to have it all figured out, nor will I concede that I am naive and foolish for placing my faith in God. I try not to look down on others for their lack of faith, particularly since faith is a gift from God. Then again... there are those who will say I'm arrogant to presume to have been given a gift that others were not. I assure you that while it may appear that way, I don't intend for it to. I don't think I'm any better than anyone else... I'm the wretch the song talks about. I guess it's a parodox... just as the idea of a sovereign God is for some.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

People have been asking the same questions since Christianity began

So, can you point me to the answers?

Maybe I could see offering people an alternative along with the backhand, but instead you just call their beliefs absurd and deem them suckers.

I have provided alternatives, people just don't want to look at them. I have suggested the over soul, I have also suggested "nothing". There could be, in fact, nothing. No god, no reason, just nothing. I don't want nor need a prize for what I believe. I don't need anyone to validate my beliefs. I don't need to sit en mass with others and contemplate the meanings of a book. *You* are the one who keeps using the term "suckers". I have never used that term, nor do I think it. I would appreciate it if you would not associate such false claims with what I say.

Yes, I've read your posts, and I think maybe you don't see the venom that spills out of them.

Hmmmm..is that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?

Open minded, to me, is accepting the limitations of our insight, and realizing that there is a possibility that even Stan might be the answer, and we just might be too limited and stupid to comprehend it.

Then, I guess we agree on something:

If you have read my comments (as you have claimed) you will know that I have stated that I may never find the end of my path of enlightenment during my lifetime, and I am OK with that.

I have never said that Christianity is "wrong". I have said that I find it absurd, and that it's not a stopping point in my path. There is a difference. You seem to be reading in your own thoughts into what I say. I have never called anyone a "sucker", and I have never said that anyone's beliefs are "wrong". However, I have had plenty of "venom" pointed at me (such as yourself) for saying that I don't believe in what "Christians" do.

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No, you've stated that by believing that the Christian God is the one true God we've closed our minds to the infinite and accepted something you, by contrast an open minded person, deem absurd.

I mean, the more you think about it, the more absurd it gets, right? So me and Thomas Aquinas and the rest of us who didn't find it absurd throughout history must not have thought about it enough. I don't have to read into it very hard, do I?

As for the answers to these baited simplistic questions, I get tired of the war of attrition. I could start breaking them apart and giving you a myriad of diverse unprovable philosophical responses dating back to the dark ages, but is that really the point? Someone else would just ask them again three posts later. Why bad things happen to good people may very well have to do with our assumptions about what is "bad", don't you think?

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+17

It always amazes me that people now think that the problems they come up with concerning Christianity are somehow original. People have been asking the same questions since Christianity began, and still smarter people than me embrace it.

Just because they are old questions doesn't mean we should stop asking them. Just because smart people have embraced the answers that christianity provides doesn't mean we all just say "good enough for me".

I guess by your own rule above, you aren't open minded either considering the fact that you ruled out Stan

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

No, you've stated that by believing that the Christian God is the one true God we've closed our minds to the infinite and accepted something you, by contrast an open minded person, deem absurd.

It's funny that *you* are the one who keeps terming me "open minded", not me. Why are you so defensive of me not accepting Christianity? If I was Jewish, would you still have a problem? Or, is it mainly because I have no religion? And, what specifically is wrong with thinking that a perfect God would have different paths to him to suit different people so that as many of his children as possible could be led to him? What exactly doesn't make sense with that?

If you believe in Christianity, that is great. You have found your "truth". Christianity is not true to me. And, yes, *I* find it absurd. Why do you find that so offensive? Am I not allowed to have an opinion? You say that I think that people who are Christian are "suckers", but I have never said that nor intended that. You have interjected your own hostile opinions. Not very "Christian" of you to judge me, now is it?

BakerStreet, you didn't answer my question about "People have been asking the same questions since Christianity began"

So, can you point me to the answers?

Just because you have quit thinking about the questions, doesn't mean that others should.

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I really can't sit back and decide how well He does his job or why He allows what He allows, because I can't see things from His perspective. That's what faith is, I guess. You choose to assume God is indifferent, I choose to believe He knows what he is doing, and leave Him to it. The difference, I think, is that you assume to be able to judge, whereas I doubt my perspective and senses enough to know I couldn't possibly do so.

Well said Baker!

Ted:

There is no reason to think that there can be perfection without balance. If God just waved His hand and forgiven us all of the pain and suffering we cause, that would throw off the balance perfection demands. Jesus Christ was born, He lived a life with temptation, pain, hunger, weakness, and sorrow as well as victory, joy, abundance and strength. He experienced life on this planet. Then, took on all the pain and suffering we caused. He satisfied the demands of punishment, so that there could be mercy. The balance was kept.

The most amazing and humbling part of it all was (at least to me), in the end, on the cross, Jesus said, "My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me!". In the end, every part of Jesus that was deity was gone. A man hung on that cross. Scripture tells us that God hid away in the deepest corners of heaven (not a direct quote). Jesus had to maintain the balance alone.

Well said!

BUT HE'S DEALING WITH HUMANS! Is the mind of a human beyond a god's comprehension? Is he unable to understand that we interpret many of his actions as cruel, and that it drives many of us away from him?

He created us remember? Of course he knows how humans are and how impressionable we are, no matter our stature in life. We just keep doing the same thing over and over and over...we have yet to learn the lesson he's trying to teach us.

Why do we equate pain with sin? Just because we hurt or in pain it's sin? Who said so?

Why do we equate desire, lust with the devil? Isn't love and desire a good thing? Don't we through these desires procreate if we so choose? Isn't that one of life's most beatiful moment? So why is it equated with the devil? Even if your desire and lust happens to be the most sadistic and the most (can't find a suitable word), but even if it was the most earth shattering type that gave you so much pleasure it gave you pain and you enjoy that so much, why does it have to be of the devil? Is the will to love to have desire to want to need why are those not good?

As if intelligence is a bad thing. Yet, religious people take offense when they're called stupid for believing. Go figure.

We all know intelligence isn't a bad thing. Why would you call someone who believe stupid? Why make a stupid statement like that? Would it be fair play then to say you're being stupid for making fun of them? Yea, you see, stupid statements, and questions, deserve stupid responses.

It strikes me odd that people who can question if many/most "sins" are really "bad", somehow can't step out of the box and ponder the idea that most misfortune and suffering aren't "bad."

We've reached the point as a society where we take the ten commandments as suggestions, and yet hold God to some fundamentalist standard. Again, like kids who see being forced to eat brocolli as torture, maybe we just can't understand how meaningless all this suffering and death is in the great scheme of things.

Baker, you hit the nail on the head again!

Condescending arrogance gets no respect from me. I said that the more you think of Christianity the more absurd it gets. If you think I am the only one who feels that way, then you need to get out more. Ever read the bible from a non-Christian viewpoint?

Why do non-believers always say this. This one mute point, believers are condescending and arrogant. Would you not say that those who don't believe are arrogant and condescending in their words and in what they do not believe? Just because we don't see eye to eye does not give either of us the right to make assumptions. There are 'assess and dumbasses' alike who are believers and nonbelievers. They both say silly and stupid things to make their point and they will say anything to make their point even if it is to be hurtful in doing so. Why must we lower ourselves to this I wonder?

I have studied *many* religions, and Christianity is the one that makes the least sense to me. However, I have met too many Christians who tell me that I am "wrong" for looking anywhere but the bible for answers. I have been told that I am going to hell because I wasn't baptized and that I am committing sin by not following the "Christian" way of life.

This is the kind of thinking by other Christians that makes me feel bad for those who come in contact with them. That is not God's way, not his teaching and certainly not how they should be!

I'm sorry you experienced something like that Karma, and I'm sorry that the small minds of a few have closed you off from experiencing that which God has to offer. I hope you will continue to pursue your own path that will lead you to that enlightenment and it will be what you're looking for.

It's like you have a thirst and nothing you drink quenches it, and then one day you make a drink, a concoction of sorts that you stumble upon yourself by putting it together, and you drink and suddenly you feel it going inside, filling you, it feels good and you drink it nonstop til it's done. Then you say ahh, how refreshing! You finally found a drink to quench your thirst and it's one YOU made! Sometimes you are the only one who can find that which you're looking for, and when you do find it, you will know. There are many paths to God, it doesn't have to be the regular way...he never said there was one path to him....MEN just makes it seem that way.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Why do non-believers always say this.

Why do non-believers say that BakerStreet was being condescending and arrogant, I don't know. That comment was directed at how he was speaking to me, not all Christians. I have no problem discussing religion with people. I have spent much time listening to people of all sorts of religions. I have borrowed books from Jehovah's Witnesses, chatted at a funeral with a Russian Orthodox priest, and discussed the bible with a Jew at lunch. I love learning about religion. But, that doesn't mean that I believe in a certain religion. The more I learn about religions, the more I realize that people fight about religions for no reason. People get to wrapped up in whose religion is "right" to see that they all basically point to the same place.

There are many paths to God, it doesn't have to be the regular way...he never said there was one path to him....MEN just makes it seem that way.

Yes, but that is not "Christian". There is a big difference is "believing in God" and being a "Christian".

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Karma, you really expect me to take a question like "If god is so perfect, why did he make us so flawed?", then sit down and find references to online material for, oh, probably a hundred philosphers since the dark ages that have addressed it?

It's the same bullshit I see here over and over:

Ask a question,
get an answer,
demand proof,
watch the person waste hours putting something together,
scoff at it,
wait two days,
ask the question again,
declare victory because the person doesn't respond.

I'm sorry, Karma, but I am bored with it. You've got Google and are smarter than the average bear. I've spent too much time in the philosophy section, in the religion section, and even answering this blog to start all over again for you or some other person who makes themselves feel smart by bashing other people's beliefs as "absurd". Frankly, I spend too much time on this site bothering with with this meaninglessness.

I'll grant you that I probably haven't thought NEARLY as much about God as you, have adopted "absurd" beliefs because of it, and let you go on your smug way. Now, you're publicly acknowledged to be smarter and more enlightened than me. And you didn't even have to declare it yourself!!

I guess that's your prize, after all.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

There is a big difference is "believing in God" and being a "Christian".

The only difference being, of course, that christians believe in Jesus as well. As far as I know that's the only consistent point between varieties of christianity.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

probably a hundred philosphers since the dark ages that have addressed it?

Philosophy is not proof- that is my point. Do you think that I haven't read tons of philosophical discussions on Christianity? I have. But, those are merely people's opinions, and they don't all agree. So, how is that "proof"? It's not. It still leaves the questions open to think about.

Frankly, I spend too much time on this site bothering with with this meaninglessness.

That's interesting. I have never found any debate about religion meaningless. Instead, I use it as an opportunity to learn something about how other people think. I also have never felt that somebody was "bashing" me because they thought that what I think is wrong. I guess I simply have a different viewpoint.

I'll grant you that I probably haven't thought NEARLY as much about God as you, have adopted "absurd" beliefs because of it, and let you go on your smug way. Now, you're publicly acknowledged to be smarter and more enlightened than me. And you didn't even have to declare it yourself!!

Have you blood pressure checked lately? Breath in....breath out.... You are the one who views this as some sort of contest, not I. I've never claimed that anything was right or wrong. Would you have been less offended if I would have said: "The more I think about Christianity, the less logical it seems to me?" *I* find it absurd. That is my opinion. I never said: "It's absurd that anyone follows Christianity." i've never said that anyone's beliefs are wrong. Yet, people, like you, are quick to get defensive when I state that *I* don't believe in something and automatically ASSUME that I am "bashing" others because they do believe in it. It's the defensiveness that really makes me wonder. And, anger...anger over a religious belief? Seems a bit counterproductive.

The only difference being, of course, that christians believe in Jesus as well. As far as I know that's the only consistent point between varieties of christianity.

Yes, but it is a *huge* point. Christians believe that the only way to God is through Jesus. If you don't take Jesus as your saviour, then you will not go to heaven. That is a *huge* difference. If all religions just said "there is a God" and left it at that, we'd all be fine. But, Christians take Jesus as their saviour, Jehovah Witnesses believe in Jesus, but talk directly to God, Jews say Jesus was important, but hey, he was just another Jew, right? And, the other religions don't use the bible. (Obviously, that is a *way* simplified view). I mean, even the Native Americans had a "God" (well, a few, actually, but one "main" deity) that they sent offerings to. But, there was no Jesus. So, the "Jesus factor" is quite significant, indeed.

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So, the "Jesus factor" is quite significant, indeed.

I'd have to agree with this. *s*

Even within the realm of "Christianity," there are major divisions. Many groups consider themselves "Christian" -- not only evangelicals -- and yet they all have different views on Jesus Himself.

I don't like labels. I don't like denominations, although referencing a denomination can be helpful in determining what perspective someone is likely to be coming from when they discuss matters of faith. For me, it's about a relationship with God, through Christ. That does make me different from other religions. There's no getting around that. If I choose to believe the Bible is God's infallible Word (and I do), then I have to also believe that Jesus is the only way, because it's clearly spelled out there. Jill is absolutely right. It's a huge point... if I were to concede it, I would be betraying my faith... and then what good would it be?

That said, I want to be sure that I live a life that reflects Christ's love. The bottom line is placing my trust in Him... but if my faith is genuine, then it should go beyond just proclaiming that and people should be able to see a difference in the way I live, the way I love. My goal is to become more like Him the more I grow to know Him... to be transformed so that my life is a true example of following Him. Will I point others to Christ when the opportunity arises? Absolutely, because I want them to experience the peace I've found as a result of my relationship with Him... but I will also seek to treat others with the same gentleness and patience God has shown me in my journey with Him. I want to live out a life that demonstrates his love. I've heard it said that people would rather see a sermon than hear one anyday. I think that's true. It doesn't matter what you say if your actions contradict it. No one will care. If I truly want to share Jesus with others, then I need to not just speak about His love, but be an extension of it.

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and here we see the problem on display. Each of us have our own beliefs and philosophies. EmporerofIceCream wrote an article about his, and what he sees in others. The rest of us write our comments about what we think and see in others.

All of that is good, until we write or read from the standpoint of trying to change each other. I don't feel the need to defend my beliefs. I'll share them, I'll tell you that some of them I know to be true, and I'll admit that some of them I'm still working on. I'll read and listen to anyone else point of view on the same subjects.

It is my hope that everyone would be able to be as strong about their beliefs as I am about mine. When I say that I know something to be true, I'm not telling anyone they have to accept it. It's not an "I'm right, you're wrong" thing...

It's more of an "I reserve the right to believe I am right, and respect your right to believe your right" thing.

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Does anyone see the HILARITY of this thread of Simon's being hijacked with talk of Christianity?

Buwhhahahahaha.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Jill is absolutely right. It's a huge point... if I were to concede it, I would be betraying my faith... and then what good would it be?

Though "Jill" may agree with me, that was me that you quoted, not her.

I find it an odd place for a lot of people. Can you believe the bible without the "Jesus factor"? Can you believe that Jesus was the son of God, but he is not your saviour and still be OK? Can you believe that Christians and Jews are brothers and will see each other in heaven? I believe a "Christian" (by pure definition) would say "no".

Who is to say that Simon's God isn't the real God and it's the same God that the bible was written by? Who knows? Does the God need a name, or a church, or a book to make it real? Or, should that God be known by what your soul tells you?

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Can you believe that Christians and Jews are brothers and will see each other in heaven? I believe a "Christian" (by pure definition) would say "no".

Actually, I believe we will all be surprised in many cases with who will be in heaven and who won't. Which is one of many reasons I'm glad that I'm not the one to decide. :~D

Unless, of course, the atheists are right and at death our chemicoelectric system merely quits, then none of us will be surprised about anything. ;~D

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+17

Unless, of course, the atheists are right and at death our chemicoelectric system merely quits, then none of us will be surprised about anything. ;~D

Ain't that the truth! And in that same regard, there are many "christians", at least ones that I have met, who speak of religion as an insurance policy. If it doesn't work, you really don't have anything to lose. I haven't seen any of those "christians" on here though.

I don't feel the need to defend my beliefs. I'll share them, I'll tell you that some of them I know to be true, and I'll admit that some of them I'm still working on. I'll read and listen to anyone else point of view on the same subjects.

If only everyone felt that way ParaTed.

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Believing in a made up Deity named Stan would probably make more sense to me....hmmm...maybe I should start the Church of Stan.

Apparantly, that's the name of god in the Middle East.

It's also absurd that the rules change.

I don't think this is absurd, I think it's a good thing. They change with the times. Someday, all the old rules will be gone. Hooray for Evolution!

Yea, you see, stupid statements, and questions, deserve stupid responses.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Apparantly, that's the name of god in the Middle East

Darn...I need a new deity name.... Of course, I wonder if their "Stan" is a Chihuahua in a pink sweater?

I don't think this is absurd, I think it's a good thing. They change with the times. Someday, all the old rules will be gone. Hooray for Evolution!

Bible....Christianity...Evolution... One of these things is not like the others....

If the bible is the word of God, the rules can't change. If they do, that is man made religion. If you believe that the bible is the word of God, you should follow it verbatim. It has no room for man made change.

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I've given some thought to the positions people are supposed to get into when they pray. Christians are supposed to kneel with their hands clasped in front of their faces. I wonder, what are they supposed to be holding in their hands (metaphorically) when they kneel before a man? And just what does "annoint" mean?

Islamics look like they're getting screwed doggy-style. "Screwed" in more ways than one?

Maybe I have too much free time.

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If the bible is the word of God, the rules can't change. If they do, that is man made religion

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

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Christians are supposed to kneel with their hands clasped in front of their faces. I wonder, what are they supposed to be holding in their hands (metaphorically) when they kneel before a man?

Huh? Where did you get this?

I pray all day long, while driving, while walking, while singing...while peeing...you get the picture. ha.

And sometimes (gasp) I even get on my face before God. (Meaning laying in a prone position.)

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Though "Jill" may agree with me, that was me that you quoted, not her.

Oops... sorry.

Still a valid point.

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