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terpfan1980
terpfan1980
Join Date 08/2004
+13

Smack me! I agree with the ACLU and a Bush-basher for once

December 13, 2005 8:02:46 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I know I might disappoint a few folks with this article, but if you guys will bear with me a bit, I think you'll understand by the time I get to the end.

Normally I have nothing but a sincere feeling of detest for all things ACLU. I call them Americans without a Clue. Typically they are the antithesis of much of what I hold dear. Call them my arch-enemies if you will. But.... every now and then they support someone with a cause that I really do support, even if I might not like the reasons behind the support.

For example, in the case in the article below, I might hate the message that the young man is trying to send, but I would support (to the tune of defending it with my death) the principal that the young man is entitled to exercise his freedom of speech -- as long as he is within the guidelines for attire that is acceptable within the school system (as he is a school-aged young man).

Anyway, see below for the original story. Again, mark this date, as it's probably one of the few where you'd find me agreeing with a Bush-basher, and then to find it doubled with me agreeing with the ACLU at the same time is truly remarkable.




Student Wins Battle To Wear Anti-Bush T-Shirt At School

LANSDALE, Pa. -- A Pennsylvania student is off the hook after the American Civil Liberties Union defended his right to wear a political T-shirt to school.
Chris Schiano's T-shirt said "International Terrorist" and had a picture of President Bush.
A security guard at his high school north of Philadelphia told him to take it off. He refused.
Schiano says he's well versed in the First Amendment. He says he "knew right off they had no legal footing to stand on."
The principal says after hearing from the ACLU, school officials realized that the shirt, while potentially offensive, didn't violate the school's dress code. It had no references to sex, drugs, ethnic intimidation or explicit language.
Schiano says he's now wearing the shirt to school and no one's given him a hard time.


Original story by Associated Press
politics
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terpfan1980
ParaTed2k
Join Date 12/2004
+35
Reply #1 December 13, 2005 8:13:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Don't feel too bad Terp, I detest the little bigots at the ACLU also, but there are a lot of cases they take that I do agree with. The Principal said it best in this case:

the shirt, while potentially offensive, didn't violate the school's dress code. It had no references to sex, drugs, ethnic intimidation or explicit language.


There could be kind of a case for libel here, but I'd hate to see that can of worms opened up. What would be funny is if some Bush supporter at the school countered this student's T-Shirt with one bearing the student's picture with "International Terrorist" or "Murderer", "Rapist" or some other baseless accusation... It would be interesting to see the outcome. ;~D
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terpfan1980
Deference
Join Date 04/2004
0
Reply #2 December 13, 2005 8:55:11 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Schools determine dress codes set by their local school boards, minors don't have the same 'rights' as adults because of their age (read: maturity). How did the ACLU overcome them?
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terpfan1980
terpfan1980
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #3 December 13, 2005 9:54:01 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
How did the ACLU overcome them?


I'm not so sure that the ACLU overcame them as much as the school system realized that their rules weren't tightly worded enough to ban what is still in effect free speech.

I may not like the message, but it's not vulgar or obscene, and if the schools dress code doesn't specifically forbid t-shirts that have any text messages of any sort on them, then the shirt the boy had would have to be accepted.

Banning shirts with any writing/text on them is tough too as then shirts with company logos for companies that parents work for might not be allowed, shirts supporting sporting teams wouldn't be allowed, shirts supporting the school or having the school name on them, etc. It's an unending string of defined exclusions or inclusions as to what is and isn't allowed.

About the only "out" the school could use would be to ban shirts that are found to be offensive, with offensive defined as "generated a complaint by another student or a school employee." At least then they could say they have an official policy with well defined guidelines that everyone knows about, and under which all students are treated equally.
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terpfan1980
stevendedalus
Join Date 11/2003
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Reply #4 December 13, 2005 10:51:04 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The issue is not free speech, but in the inflammatory nature of the message that could disrupt the school process.
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terpfan1980
terpfan1980
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #5 December 13, 2005 11:29:37 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The issue is not free speech, but in the inflammatory nature of the message that could disrupt the school process.


But again, I can (in the students defense) point back to the stated policies and say that the message isn't obscene or vulgar, and while somewhat inflammatory, "somewhat inflammatory" isn't banned in the stated policy.

Perhaps the school (and/or school district) needs to update it's policy to cover "inflammatory messages", and "objectionable materials", but eventually they wind up with a dress code that is so long they might just as well require students to wear uniforms and get it over with.

Personally, I actually like the idea of school uniforms for some of the reasons you mention, and because it just seems to have been shown to help keep students more orderly. It leads to much less concern over having the latest and greatest fashion items, and a much more educationally condusive environment. But of course, that is a different story and an article for another day.
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terpfan1980
Dr Guy
Join Date 09/2004
+129
Reply #6 December 14, 2005 8:13:47 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

The issue is not free speech, but in the inflammatory nature of the message that could disrupt the school process.

I actually agree with Steven.  My children are not allowed to wear a lot of things to school, not because it is obscene, but because it could be offensive to others.  Now, while I do not agree with that stand in Public, Schools are a whole different matter.  Until a student is of legal age, they must follow the arbitrary rules set down by grups.

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terpfan1980
DJBandit
Join Date 04/2004
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Reply #7 December 14, 2005 11:11:10 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Personally, I actually like the idea of school uniforms for some of the reasons you mention, and because it just seems to have been shown to help keep students more orderly. It leads to much less concern over having the latest and greatest fashion items, and a much more educationally condusive environment. But of course, that is a different story and an article for another day.


Actually there already is an article about it. Not sure if it was Marcie, the school teacher, who wrote it or it was Texas W from Hawaii (I believe) with a problem about uniforms in her kids school. It's a really good read. You should check it out.
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terpfan1980
DJBandit
Join Date 04/2004
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Reply #8 December 14, 2005 11:20:17 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I agree everyone has the right to like or dislike Bush and show it by wearing a shirt about it. Although you will never catch me wearing either one. But if a schools policy denies you the right then you have to follow the rules. In this case the kid was in his right and the school looked stupid (in a way) for not understanding their own policies from the beginning.

This is a sictuation that I, also, agree that uniforms are better suited just to be fair with everyone, apart from all the other benefits mentioned and those not mentioned.
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terpfan1980
Chaos Manager
Join Date 06/2005
+15
Reply #9 December 14, 2005 11:29:29 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
it was Texas W from Hawaii (I believe)

It was TW. And it was something done by one of her boys (for a school project, I think). Try as I might, though, I can't seem to find it.
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