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zinkadoodle
zinkadoodle
Join Date 05/2005
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Check out these numbers

Month by Month

June 20, 2005 9:46:41 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Check out these numbers, month by month, then ask yourself if we are really making progress. Remember, these are only the US numbers.

Forget the Numbers Link Visuals make it real for those who don't have any sense of what 1,723 really means.

Now, imagine what this web site would look like if it included the Iraqi numbers. But, who's counting them? So, I guess we'll never really know.

I have been struggling with the question of whether we should "stay the course" in order to prevent a bloodbath (as if one is not already happening), or just cut our losses and get our troops home now. I still don't really know. On the one hand, if we stay, we must have new leadership to replace the incompetents who started this mess. On the other hand, the insurgents are mostly Saudi Arabians, our "friends" who may likely leave if the US pulls out. I don't know. All I do know is that we absolutely cannot "stay the course".

A foolish man is one who repeats the same thing over and over, hoping for different outcomes. We have incompetent leadership. That's for sure.

"Every time I hear the news
That old feeling comes back on;
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the Big Fool says to push on."
- Pete Seeger, 1967
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zinkadoodle
Daiwa
Join Date 07/2001
+351
Reply #1 June 21, 2005 12:56:28 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There's no evidence (as opposed to patently unbelievable claims) that the outside agitators/"insurgents" would leave or lay down their arms if we up & bailed out. Their "targets" are now overwhelmingly Iraqis, and their targets will still be there long after we're gone. They know we're going to leave and if their true objective was simply for the US to depart, they could achieve it rather easily - they could stop all the violence, allow order to be restored and we'd be gone. So the fantasy that the abrupt departure of US troops would lead to nirvana is just that. Contrary to popular opinion, they're not just fighting the Great Satan - that's now largely cover for their attempts to regain power through intimidation, a public justification for mayhem for mayhem's sake. I was going to say "through force of arms" but that wouldn't be accurate - they can't regain power that way. The only way for them to regain power is to be so ruthless and vile that they intimidate the US & Iraqi governments into conceding, and that is simply not going to happen. Our troops will come home, but on our timetable and terms, not theirs.

It is your opinion that we have incompetent leadership. It is my opinion that history will prove you wrong.

Cheers,
Daiwa
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zinkadoodle
zinkadoodle
Join Date 05/2005
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Reply #2 June 21, 2005 6:55:12 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There is no evidence other than there were no terrorists in Iraq until the US invasion. Their motives right now is to get the US to just leave. What they do with their country after that will depend on the strength of the Iraqi people. But, I am afraid that the government that replaces Saddam's regime will be one of religion and repression. That is why I am convinced (whether you call it opinion or not) that only a change in US leadership to someone with competence and without selfish motives is needed to get this mess clean up. After all, how many dead Americans are acceptable to you? What is the threshold that you consider acceptable? How much death and destruction in Iraq are you willing to accept? Would you send your sons and daughters there right now? I bet that the only reason there is no draft these days is because our lawmakers do not want their kids going there to die. Other than that, the hawks don't really give a sh*t.

All in all, I'm not saying just cut and run. I'm saying, and I repeat, we need competent leadership ASAP. What we have now are proven failures. Bush has failed absolutely everything he's laid a hand on, except getting elected. He is an incompetent horse's ass.
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zinkadoodle
MythicalMino
Join Date 08/2002
0
Reply #3 June 21, 2005 8:02:35 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
well....my understanding is...

The soldiers are, for the most part, not wanting to just up and leave. And....many of them are volunteering to go back over. So...

that being said...what leadership are you talking about? Who should take over? the Democrats that refer to our soldiers at war criminals? Kerry, a man who couldn't decide what he was for...pro-war or not? Just what leadership should take over? Right now, we have the leadership in place that will get the job done....The democrats only want to turn tail and run.

So....what should be the new leadership? If the dems could bring forth someone with some merit, someone who is not a pathetic tool for their party (Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Kennedy.....the list goes on and on)....I would vote for them....

But....hey, the voting has already been done in this country....

But, I have a question for you. Why do you not talk this stuff on the threads tha have the good stuff happening? Shadow war's blog comes distinctly to mind.....
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zinkadoodle
Island Dog
Join Date 06/2003
+1048 sdemployee
Reply #4 June 21, 2005 10:00:05 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There is no evidence other than there were no terrorists in Iraq until the US invasion.


Here's one. There are several more including how al-zaqwari was in Iraq before the invasion.


U.S. captures mastermind of Achille Lauro hijacking

From David Ensor
CNN
Wednesday, April 16, 2003 Posted: 5:10 AM EDT (0910 GMT)

Abu Abbas, the Palestinian terrorist who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro, was arrested by U.S. forces outside Baghdad. CNN's David Ensor reports (April 16)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Abu Abbas, a convicted Palestinian terrorist who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro on which a wheelchair-bound American was killed, was captured by U.S. Special Forces in the outskirts of Baghdad, U.S. Central Command said Tuesday.
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zinkadoodle
drmiler
Join Date 09/2004
+1
Reply #5 June 21, 2005 10:43:12 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

#2 by zinkadoodle
Tuesday, June 21, 2005





There is no evidence other than there were no terrorists in Iraq until the US invasion. Their motives right now is to get the US to just leave. What they do with their country after that will depend on the strength of the Iraqi people. But, I am afraid that the government that replaces Saddam's regime will be one of religion and repression. That is why I am convinced (whether you call it opinion or not) that only a change in US leadership to someone with competence and without selfish motives is needed to get this mess clean up. After all, how many dead Americans are acceptable to you? What is the threshold that you consider acceptable? How much death and destruction in Iraq are you willing to accept? Would you send your sons and daughters there right now? I bet that the only reason there is no draft these days is because our lawmakers do not want their kids going there to die. Other than that, the hawks don't really give a sh*t.

All in all, I'm not saying just cut and run. I'm saying, and I repeat, we need competent leadership ASAP. What we have now are proven failures. Bush has failed absolutely everything he's laid a hand on, except getting elected. He is an incompetent horse's ass.


This is your opinion and your entitled to it! That being said....Get a clue! Bush is in the white house until 2008! Deal with it! You can call for impeachment all you want, it AIN'T happening!
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zinkadoodle
Island Dog
Join Date 06/2003
+1048 sdemployee
Reply #6 June 21, 2005 11:13:01 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Here we are, 3 1/2 years later, Afhganistan has been liberated from the Taliban and had their first elections. Iraq has been liberated from a brutal dictator and has had their first elections.


If it's not perfect, then it's just not worth it. That's the liberal position.
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zinkadoodle
bakerstreet
Join Date 03/2001
+7
Reply #7 June 21, 2005 11:19:56 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
what do you suggest we do, zink? About "our" leaders? Do you think that a majority of Americans feel the President should be impeached? If not, do you think that your opinions should trump the majority in a Democracy?

Other than that, do you think you have grounds for robbing a President of his Constitutional authority and hiring someone else or something? You gripe a lot, but I don't see you proposing any fixes. Bush isn't going to run again, so what do you think should be done?
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