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whoman69

Join Date 10/2004

Rating the Presidents

The History Channel just finished a wonderful 8 part documentary on the history of the Presidents. Watching it gave me an idea for a thread to rate the Presidents. Here goes:

I. Great Presidents
1. Franklin Roosevelt- His leadership thru the depression and World War II make him the greatest president ever. He showed the nation that
things would improve. This depite living his life in pain from polio.
2. Abraham Lincoln- While he may have been a little too hands on in the war, with the generals he had to work with that's understandable. The
emancipation proclaimation made his presidency great. The South made a grave mistake in wanting him dead. Reconstruction would have been much
kinder with him at the helm.
3. George Washington- He set the standard. Everything he did was precedent.
4. Teddy Roosevelt- Environmentalist, trust buster, union negotiator, and the man most responsible for making the US a world power. He also used
his big stick diplomacy to end to European imperialism in the western hemisphere.
5. Thomas Jefferson- The Louisiana purchase brings him up towards the top, though his 2nd term was filled with errors. Writing the Declaration
of Independence tends to balance that off.
6. Andrew Jackson- Perhaps a tyrant, certainly a hater of Indians, his policies dominated the landscape for 30 years.
7. Ronald Reagan- The great communicator certainly made his share of mistakes, but the fact he brought us back from the ruinous inflation of the
70s, and hastened the end of the Soviet Union brings him to greatness.
8. Harry Truman- His decision to drop the bomb may have been the bravest decision in the history of our nation. He saved countless lives not only of
Americans, but of Japanese as well. His "buck stops here" attitude shows that an honest man can make alot of enemies in Washington. Was responsible
for desegregating the military, the first steps of civil rights in this country. His implementation of the Marshall plan and the containment of
communism were the first steps in winning the cold war. He made decisions not by how they would effect him, but what was right. You have to respect
someone for doing things they knew would not be popular but needed to be done.

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II. Near Great Presidents
9. James Knox Polk- Probably the most underrated President of all. Largely forgotten because he literally worked himself to death in his one term.
Brought Texas and California into the fold and stood up to the British to set our northern border.
10. James Monroe- The Monroe Doctrine was used many times by following adminstrations, from McKinley, Roosevelt and Polk.
11. John Kennedy- I tend to err on the positive side in looking at what could been. He brought a vitality that renewed the American people after
the conservative years of the Eisenhower administration. Its hard to think of another President who would not have resisted the temptation to go
along with the military and attack Cuba during the missile crisis. Had he done, perhaps none of us would be around now.
12. William McKinley- Despite being labeled as being in the corporate pocket, he did much to bring the fruits of the economy to the common people.
Some of the polies of Roosevelt were a continuation of his predecessor. His reasons to go to war with Spain may not have been sound, but the triumph
showed that America was a force.
13. Woodrow Wilson- How different would the world be had he not fallen to illness as the Treaty of Versailles came up for vote in the Senate? Like
Lincoln a half century prior, Wilson showed that the defeated enemy need not be crushed into the ground. His view of a world peace may have been
naive, but we will never know.
14. Dwight Eisenhower- Used his great popularity to great effect, but at times would not stick his neck out for necessary action. Warned against
the expansion of the military complex. His term was framed by the red scare.

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III. Taken From Greatness
15. William Howard Taft- despite what TR thought, he actually continued many of his predecessor's policies and even expanded on some. His was taken
down by sniping from Roosevelt.
16. James Madison- Was it foolhardy to take on the British? Yes. Was it necessary? Again, yes. Early embarrassements led to great victories in
Baltimore and New Orleans. The father of the Constitution.
17. Bill Clinton- Despised by the opposition and brought down by his own inability to admit his infidelity, he presided over the longest economic
expansion in history. The first president since Jackson to have a balanced budget. Was seen as weak on foreign policy where his failures seemed
great but his successes were underplayed. Went to Kosovo to end the ethnic cleansing. Was more effective than given credit for in the war on
terror as plots were uncovered and foiled to blow up planes over the Pacific, attack monuments in New York, and planned attacks on the millenium
celebration.
18. Lyndon Johnson- Johnson like many who follow an assassinated president, had an opportunity to use the nation's grief to move forth on his agenda.
He used the memory of Kennedy very well and made great strides in the war on poverty and civil rights. His administration was bogged down in Vietnam.
19. Richard Nixon- Its amazing how many presidents seem to make strides by going against what they are seen to be. Jefferson was supposedly for small
government but greatly increased the power of the federal government. Eisenhower was a military hero who warned against the expansion of the military
complex. Richard Nixon was in the McCarthian mold of communist fighters but opened relations with China, took part in detente and SALT talks with the
Soviets, and though he did not want to, put an end to Vietnam. He was a paranoid man whose enemy list led to the greatest shame ever facing a
president.

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IV. Not destined for greatness
20. Chester A Arthur- Arthur was another who excelled in beating down preconceived notions about him. Three years prior he had been booted out of a
plum Tammany Hall position in an attempt to curb the political spoils system. He was VP to Garfield who was killed by a crazy scoundrel that showed the
worst apects of that spoils system. Arthur used his administration to put an end to the corruption. Because this made him alot of enemies, including
his former allies, he was not asked to run.
21. Gerald Ford- The only president never elected to his office, Ford was denied a term of his own due to his pardon of Nixon. Many never forgave him,
and I have to include myself in that category. He was trying to do the right things to overturn a deep economic recession, and given time may have done
it where his successor could not. He presided over the sad evacuation of Saigon, but was powerless to act in the face of a congress that had enough of
that conflict.
22. Herbert Hoover- Many rank him much lower due to his handling of the depression. His policy of volunteerism by corporate America did nothing to
soothe a nation ravaged. He tried many things, but there was no way that such a hole could be escaped so quickly. He was a great man who oversaw
the feeding of Europe after both world wars. He also oversaw relief efforts in the flood of the century in 1927 in the Mississippi River valley. His
victory over Al Smith, was to that point, the greatest landslide in history. He is also a distant cousin of mine. So if I rank a great man too high
as a president, sue me.
23. Jimmy Carter- The high point in his presidential career was Mid East Peace accords between Israel and Egypt. Since leaving office he has done
more for the world than any ex-President in history. He has been given too much blame for the Iran hostage situation. He certainly did not create the
atmosphere of hate for America and did not put the Shah in power. He did everything in power to bring the hostages back. Those with little foresight
would have had him act militarily against Iran. The moment the first squadron flew over the hostages would have been executed. Carter made it clear
to the Iranians that should any of the hostages be harmed, he would cut Iran off from the rest of the world. Were any of them killed, he would invade.
24. George Bush- There were several victories of foreign policy that were the general result of decades of effort by American presidents to contain
Communism. Still, he was very shrewd not to push his victories in the face of the Soviets. He worked with Gorbachev to the eventual passing of the
torch to democracy in Russia and the dismantling of the Soviet empire. Had he pushed harder, the hard core elements would have had the ammunition they
needed to actually succeed in their coup attempt. He made, IMO, the biggest blunder of the 20th century in allowing Saddam to maintain power. I was
embarrassed that the US would stand idly by as he then attacked the Kurds right under our noses. He lost the election because he couldn't understand
that the strength of America comes from within, not in how we project ourselves across the world. He lost site of the economy and the deficit.
25. George W. Bush- The 9/11 attacks broke him from his scheduled four year vacation. He brought the nation together and put together and went after
the terrorists directly in Afghanistan. From there it goes downhill. He pulled troops from Afghanistan prematurely in order to prematurely invade
Iraq. Once in Iraq there were not sufficient troops to quell the looting and lawlessness that follow which in turn fuelled the insurgency. W has also
had a difficult time in admitting his mistakes and correcting them. He still allows the tax loophole that rewards outsourcing companies to stand.
26. Calvin Coolidge- Why bust on Coolidge? After all during his administration the economy was robust and the world seemed to run on cruise control.
The nation paid for the short term successes with the most devastating depression in our nation's history because of the short sighted policies of this
administration. The nation may have been better off had he been out fishing the whole time.
27. Ulysses S. Grant- Never had such a popular president let the nation down so much. The people elected Grant to repair the damage done by the horrid
Johnson adminstration. In many ways Grant left the situation even worse. He did nothing to curb the excesses of the newly founded KKK. And the scandals
of his administration weakened the Presidency for many years.

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V. We hardly knew ye
28. James Garfield- Ironic that a man who was going to clean up the political spoils system was killed by a madman dissatisfied he was left out.
29. William H. Harrison- Cough. You're 68 years old and don't have the sense not to stand out in the freezing rain for two hours running your
yap?
VI. Why did they bother
30. Grover Cleveland- The nation would have been much better off had he decided not to run again. The only thing positive to say was that he was not
Benjamin Harrison.
31. John Tyler- Given the unthankable task of taking office without a clear Constitutional mandate. The only president ever kicked out of his own party.
He actually made his own decisions and was doing a fair job, but the split with his party crippled his administration.
32. Rutherford B. Hayes- He took office with an unholy agreement to let reconstruction die.
33. Martin Van Buren- Sacked with the short sighted political move of Jackson to revoke the charter of the US bank, Old Kinderhook was not up to the
task.
34. John Adams- How do you follow the father of our country? In the case of John Adams, very poorly. The Alien and Sedition act was terribly unpopular
and was totally against the ideals this country should stand for. Coincidentally called the Patriot Act, it shows that those who forget history are doomed
to repeat it. This guy was the poster child for bipolarism who believed himself the greatest man ever one day, followed by days when he believed he was
loathesome.
35. Benjamin Harrison- This guy was worried about living up to the legacy of a man who was in office one month. And he wasn't up to the task. He put
forth a huge tarriff that he argued would make conditions better for American workers by protecting their jobs. It had the effect of creating huge
American monopolies that ruled with an iron fist and pushed prices up to maximize profits.
36. Zachary Taylor- Like Eisenhower he had never voted prior to becoming president, and did not even bother to vote in his own election. He was such a
horrid president that rumors lasted for years that he was poisoned to get him out of the way.
37. Millard Fillmore- Fillmore took over for Taylor and was browbeaten to agree to the Compromise of 1850, a horrid piece of legislation that led directly
to the Civil War. It was very appropriate he ran on the Know Nothing Party plank in 1856.
38. William Harding- His two years in office were actually robust, but the Teapot Dome scandal destroyed any legacy he may have had. Only one of two
sitting senators to be elected President.
39. Franklin Pierce- He tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one. Before his presidency he was one of the most liked, after one of the
least liked. Just before his inauguration his only living child was killed in a train wreck with he and his wife as witness. His wife became a recluse
and privately blamed the fortune of her husband becoming President for the disaster of her son's death. Pierce lost all self confidence and was powerless
in office.
40. John Quincy Adams- He was seen as a usurper for the circumstances which brought him to office. If was highly unbelievable that he claimed giving
the office of Secretary to State to Henry Clay, the Speaker of the House and coincidentally candidate who finished fourth and was ineligable for the final
vote to break the tie in the House of Representatives. The following election of 1828 became on of the most negative of all time.
41. James Buchanan- He was glad to leave office in 1861, and the nation was glad along with him. His indecision and lack of political cajones made
the Civil War inevitable. He allowed Kansas to come into the union as a slave state even though they were opposed to it. He did nothing to thwart the
secession of southern states and pushed the decision on Fort Sumter onto Lincoln.
42. Andrew Johnson- He followed none of the planned policies of Lincoln. Used his veto policy instead of working with Congress. The charges that
brought Impreachment were trumped up, but they wanted him out so badly, it seemed the thing to do.

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It was a great documentary and I saw all but the one on Clinton and GWB, beacuse I had to do something; but it is on right now as a rerun.

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I enjoyed it as well. And i think your rankings are pretty fair.

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25. George W. Bush- The 9/11 attacks broke him from his scheduled four year vacation. He brought the nation together and put together and went after
the terrorists directly in Afghanistan. From there it goes downhill. He pulled troops from Afghanistan prematurely in order to prematurely invade
Iraq. Once in Iraq there were not sufficient troops to quell the looting and lawlessness that follow which in turn fuelled the insurgency. W has also
had a difficult time in admitting his mistakes and correcting them. He still allows the tax loophole that rewards outsourcing companies to stand.

So far, this is pretty fair. We'll just have to see if his second term causes him to rise, or (more likely) plummet

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I only have a problem with 1 and 2. I'm back and forth on this. Maybe they could share first place?

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I think that Grover Cleveland is a lot higher than 30.

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6. Andrew Jackson

My favorite! I like where you put him, that sounds about right. I looked at a 1962 poll, and actually Warren G. Harding is the worst president ever according to them. And Grant was way lower as well, what with all the scandals. But other than that good ranking.

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Franklin Roosevelt

He's may favorite! I always have him #1 in debates, but other people put him 3,4,5, so I'm happy you put him 1st.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I wouldn't put Harry Truman in the top list. The more I've read on him, the more incompetent he sounds.

I think John Adams should be on that list. He managed to keep us out of a war with the French adn England despite a lot of pressure to get involved at a time where the US was very vulnerable.

But otherwise a great list.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

The idea that Clinton will be remembered as a better President than Bush is fantasy.

"President Clinton presided for 8 years and..um..he did..well he got a blow job in the white house..." there's not much accomplishment in 8 years.

In Bush's first term he liberated Afghanistan and Iraq, reformed public education, and passed a significant tax cut that turned what could have been a depression into a mild recession.

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In Bush's first term he liberated Afghanistan and Iraq, reformed public education, and passed a significant tax cut that turned what could have been a depression into a mild recession.

Well, it is too early to rate Bush, mostly because his term isn't over, and the job in Iraq isn't done yet. If he fails in Iraq or it goes badly, he will be remembered as a warmonger with incompetent foreign policy who recklessly played with the lives of the soldiers and the people of Iraq. However, if it goes well and Iraq becomes the shining beacon of hope in the Middle East, he will rate in the greats or near greats. Personally, I believe that the former is more likely

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Reply #14 By: latour999 - 1/23/2005 1:10:57 AM
In Bush's first term he liberated Afghanistan and Iraq, reformed public education, and passed a significant tax cut that turned what could have been a depression into a mild recession.

Well, it is too early to rate Bush, mostly because his term isn't over, and the job in Iraq isn't done yet. If he fails in Iraq or it goes badly, he will be remembered as a warmonger with incompetent foreign policy who recklessly played with the lives of the soldiers and the people of Iraq. However, if it goes well and Iraq becomes the shining beacon of hope in the Middle East, he will rate in the greats or near greats. Personally, I believe that the former is more likely

Actually your rating of our president means little or nothing.

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Actually your rating of our president means little or nothing.

I was just saying that it is too early to rate Bush, because A: his second term isn't even near over, and B: we don't know how the war in Iraq will end.

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Reply #17 By: whoman69 - 1/23/2005 12:50:02 PM
Actually your rating of our president means little or nothing.

Then why are you pissed?

I'm not. Believe me *if* I was, you'd know it.

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Actually your rating of our president means little or nothing.

Then why are you pissed?

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I don't see a scenario where GWB ends up lower than Clinton. Clinton really has little to show for 8 years. I don't see any scenario where Iraq ends up in worse shape than it was under Saddam.

I am curious, Latour, what is the "end game" for Iraq if "Bush fails"? That it might end up under the rule of a homicidal maniac bent on acquiring WMDs, intent to invade his neighbors and support terrorists? So the worst case scenario is that it ends up as bad as it started which is a pretty unlikely scenario.

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