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NOW He *Realizes* It...Bush And The Pitfalls of Plain Talk

Sometimes, Saying What's On Your Mind Isn't The Point.

January 16, 2005 8:33:34 AM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
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I quite don't know what to say here. To be honest, I am glad Bush admitted some kind of fallacy to his presidency after we've been somewhat worried that he's a little too full of bravado for the job, and yet I am filled with the biting liberal response, which goes something like this: 'too little, too late'. It's too late to really apologize for any damage saying 'I want him dead or alive' might have caused, or for the insurgents to 'bring it on'. (Do you think the president's been watching too many highschool cheerleading comedies? Nah...) However, I sincerely doubt the infamous Bush sound bites are what got us into trouble completely, although they might have spread it along. Sound bites, as amusing as they are, ("Read my lips," "I did not have sex with that woman," "I am not a crook," "There's some rumors on the internets,") are not the be all and end of all what happens in this country, policy is.

However, it is a liability, although I won't say a crippling one, to have a president that tends to verbalize himself in an unsuitable manner, or does not, at the very least think or rehearse his comments through as he says them. It makes him seem...brash. And you wonder if his policy comes in a brash manner as well.

Perhaps, in a way, I should illustrate my point before all the right wingers tell me I'm so far off base, it's not funny and I'm a horrible person to even point out flaws in our president. I have a friend who is in the Marines. Great guy, I met him through my roleplaying group that we hold that meets every week. (Please spare me the D&D jokes, and the moralistic attitude that roleplaying is wrong, btw. I wager that I've heard most of it already and we weren't playing D&D.) He has a friend also in the Corps, and they were both home around Christmas, so my friend invites his friends (including the Marine that came home around the same time he did) to play with part of our group in a rp setting. And frankly, it wasn't a bad night, my Marine friend is a great game master, and I could tell he was in his element again. However, his friend that came back from the Marines with him started cracking anti-Army comments without even really thinking. (I'd use the word 'jokes', but it was too rude for that.) The two people from my group that had come were offended after a while, considering one of them was ex-Army after a medical situation that rendered him unable to serve...and the other was the husband of a soldier in Iraq. Now, he did stop after they told him to drop it (which was good, because if they didn't say something I was tempted to) and he did, but not before trying the Navy on for size. (The soldier's wife wasn't amused. Two of her best friends are sailors. He was asked to shut up again.)

Now, I realize roleplaying is akin to playacting, but the friend of my friend who was home and enjoying his gamemastering was...well, let's just say his character was much like him in some way, overtly violent and direct to the point of being insulting. In a one off game an unsubtle character who doesn't think things through isn't that much of liabilty (although he did almost kill a friend's character with his need to fight everyone), but had that game progressed beyond that night and it continued, it might have been more trouble that it was worth.

What was the point of the story, you may ask? First off, spending one night with one person who seems to like to talk without considering any conquences to his words at all (I am, in RL, a very non aggressive person. He mentioned being thrilled to go to Iraq to get a chance to try out his knife on Iraqi ((yes, I know, it's insurgents and they're the enemy, but it's a little unsettling.))) left us with a negative perception of the guy. Secondly, and it may be miltaristic training, but you wonder if his need for violence means he's willing to take it out on others, which I also admit is perception. Perception in many ways forms the reality for human beings. That guy may have been a nice guy outside of the game, but I was left with a negative perception of him and frankly an undesirable one. While I might admit I need to give him a second chance and will probably do so, it'll be a wary thing at best.

When someone who reperesents this country sends out the perception of aggressiveness or recklessness or a brash unthinking manner, it tends to form perceptions for other people who see this person in action. While strength is a good thing to show off, strength to the point of arrogance is a good way to tarnish our credability. And whilst actions speak louder than words, words can also be used to explain actions, whether they're meant in that way or not.

So, I'm glad President Bush admitted to his fault and I hope he decides to be thoughtful always in word in deed. And while he admits he's done harm by his wonders, one can only wonder exactly how much has he done.

Admitting That He's Not Perfect Either, The AWM/wolf dragon,

Sol
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Solnac
dabe
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Reply #1 January 16, 2005 9:10:05 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
While strength is a good thing to show off, strength to the point of arrogance is a good way to tarnish our credability.


I think this statement is the crux of your article, which, btw, is excellent. I've also wondered what to do with Bush admitting these sound bite mistakes, but truthfully, I blow them off. Actions do speak louder than words, and his actions really sum up his arrogance in this world, which because of the "internets", is global in its implications. Bush has zero credibility from anyone, or any country, except the hardline jingoists in the USA. And, that's a sad statement of his achievements, or lack thereof.
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Reply #2 January 16, 2005 10:01:46 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
He has some credibility in Australia amongst a certain kind of people. They think he's a moron, but that's a good thing in some ways - the dumber and more obnoxious the US president is, the more likely the west's enemies are going to target America over other nations, ie Australia. So he gets some respect for that, even if it is tempered with scorn.

He also does a brisk trade with the Aussie version of hicks - 'bogans'. They don't know what he's talking about, and probably couldn't locate the US on a map, but they like the sound of teaching the 'sand-niggers' to show some respect. So he's got their support as well.

But everyone else just shrugs him off as a typical American - loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser. A totally unfair assertion (not many Americans are multi-millionaires who once owned a baseball team) but then life's not fair either.
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Reply #3 January 16, 2005 9:09:33 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #2 By: cactoblasta - 1/16/2005 10:01:46 AM But everyone else just shrugs him off as a typical American - loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser.


Maybe you could explain to me just *how* he's a *sore looser*!
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Reply #4 January 16, 2005 9:18:49 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I don't know if he is or not, but that doesn't matter. "Sore loser" (by the way it's loser in this case, as in winners and losers, not some bastardisation of loose) is simply part of the American stereotype, so the assumption goes that Bush is like that as well.
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Reply #5 January 16, 2005 9:22:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Maybe you could explain to me just *how* he's a *sore looser*!


umm Doc, maybe you might want to look at the bigger picture. The problem here is that we have an unfair reputation... which is personified and extended with someone like Bush acting as our spokesperson in the world. Not something I'm too happy about, and maybe if you would think through it you would see that it is a problem too.
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Reply #6 January 16, 2005 9:45:16 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums




Reply #4 By: cactoblasta - 1/16/2005 9:18:49 PM
I don't know if he is or not, but that doesn't matter. "Sore loser" (by the way it's loser in this case, as in winners and losers, not some bastardisation of loose) is simply part of the American stereotype, so the assumption goes that Bush is like that as well


It DOES matter! *YOU* made the statement, now back it up!


Reply #5 By: sandy2 - 1/16/2005 9:22:19 PM
Maybe you could explain to me just *how* he's a *sore looser*!


umm Doc, maybe you might want to look at the bigger picture. The problem here is that we have an unfair reputation... which is personified and extended with someone like Bush acting as our spokesperson in the world. Not something I'm too happy about, and maybe if you would think through it you would see that it is a problem too.


Not to me. I *voted* for him.
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Reply #7 January 16, 2005 11:21:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Not to me. I *voted* for him.


You like being viewed as loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser
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Reply #8 January 17, 2005 12:23:48 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It DOES matter! *YOU* made the statement, now back it up!


I'm glad I'm not related to you. It's absolutely impossible to speak to you about anything. I was speaking about perceptions in general - to back it up I suppose I could find a survey which found that most Australians consider Americans loud, violent sore losers, but I imagine that wouldn't be enough for you. So frankly I'm simply going to ignore your challenges from now on. I've tried to understand your point of view, but the only rational explanation for your behaviour seems to be that you're either a petulant child or some insane old man whose immunity to argument is based on sheer pigheadedness rather than the exercise of intelligence.

I'd apologise if that sounds cruel but to be honest I'm over it and don't really feel like bothering with niceties when it comes to you anymore. You give the right a bad name and you never ever give up an opportunity to launch a personal attack, complete with terrible spelling and the abuse of emphasis. So have a nice life, *mate*.

Feel free to delete this rant Solnac if you like, but I haven't got a clue how to actually answer a demand like drmiler's last one to his satisfaction.
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Reply #9 January 17, 2005 12:58:56 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but when I heard Prs. Bush say, "Bring it on!" it brought back memories. Memories of being a Specialist in Saudi Arabia when Hussein threatened to bring "The Mother of all wars" to the U.S. led coalition. Now, I realize we were a bunch of young, and highly motivated paratroopers, but our response to the was, in fact, "Bring it On!!!!" The words almost became a mantra every time we heard "Mother of all wars".


Anyway, I'd much rather hear a president use words like, "Bring it On!" than "An act of terrorism totally outside the bounds of international law and diplomatic tradition. a crisis [that] calls for firmness and restraint." Yeah, Prs. Carter, that one worked.
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Reply #10 January 17, 2005 1:04:37 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Anyway, I'd much rather hear a president use words like, "Bring it On!" than "An act of terrorism totally outside the bounds of international law and diplomatic tradition. a crisis [that] calls for firmness and restraint." Yeah, Prs. Carter, that one worked.


I'd agree with you there. I hate political double-speak. I think this is just one of those situations where you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's just a shame that Bush isn't witty like Churchill was. Then he'd get away with it a lot easier.
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Reply #11 January 17, 2005 10:21:15 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #7 By: sandy2 - 1/16/2005 11:21:59 PM
Not to me. I *voted* for him.


You like being viewed as loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser


I'll go along with the first 2 but not the 2nd set. *I* didn't vote for Kerry!
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Reply #12 January 17, 2005 10:38:45 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Apparently, drimiler thinks that the only win/lose situation in the world is the kerry-bush election. Talk about a tiny frame of reference............ it's pathetic.
Cacto, I gave up on him a long time ago. I've blacklisted him and he's blacklisted me. And, that's just fine.
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Reply #13 January 17, 2005 10:53:10 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It's just a shame that Bush isn't witty like Churchill was. Then he'd get away with it a lot easier.


Except for the small detail that Churchill was voted out. ;~D
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Reply #14 January 17, 2005 2:48:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #12 By: dabe - 1/17/2005 10:38:45 AM
Apparently, drimiler thinks that the only win/lose situation in the world is the kerry-bush election. Talk about a tiny frame of reference............ it's pathetic.
Cacto, I gave up on him a long time ago. I've blacklisted him and he's blacklisted me. And, that's just fine.


Then please stop talking about me like I'm not around, you pathetic excuse for a female human being.
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Reply #15 January 17, 2005 5:20:33 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Then please stop talking about me like I'm not around, you pathetic excuse for a female human being.


Dr. Miler, do your self and the rest of us a favor: cease the personal attacks, because I don't really need a reason to blacklist you: I'd enjoy it. I find you cantankerous and a thorn in my side. The only reason I've not is for any reason of 'fairness' on this blog for your extreme views. I personally do not care if you even insult liberals as a whole, but the personal attacks gotta stop. You're trolling and that's no fun for anyone. Rant off.

So frankly I'm simply going to ignore your challenges from now on. I've tried to understand your point of view, but the only rational explanation for your behaviour seems to be that you're either a petulant child or some insane old man whose immunity to argument is based on sheer pigheadedness rather than the exercise of intelligence.


Cacto, while I don't feel the frothing mode of vengeance to you, please, for my sake, don't give obnoxious jerks ammo. (And to preempt you, dr. miler...it's my blog, I can say whatever I please. Blacklist me from yours if you don't like it.) Try to keep your temper please. On to the intelligent comments:

The problem here is that we have an unfair reputation... which is personified and extended with someone like Bush acting as our spokesperson in the world. Not something I'm too happy about, and maybe if you would think through it you would see that it is a problem too.


That's pretty much it, sandy. Nail on the head. Dabe, ditto.

don't know, maybe it's just me, but when I heard Prs. Bush say, "Bring it on!" it brought back memories. Memories of being a Specialist in Saudi Arabia when Hussein threatened to bring "The Mother of all wars" to the U.S. led coalition. Now, I realize we were a bunch of young, and highly motivated paratroopers, but our response to the was, in fact, "Bring it On!!!!" The words almost became a mantra every time we heard "Mother of all wars".Anyway, I'd much rather hear a president use words like, "Bring it On!" than "An act of terrorism totally outside the bounds of international law and diplomatic tradition. a crisis [that] calls for firmness and restraint." Yeah, Prs. Carter, that one worked.


Not to insult you, but "Bring it on!" made the some of the rest of us vaguely ill, and to some of us made him sound...well, sixteen. Now, I understand that brings different imagery to you. As for the Carter quote, Carter had a penchant for it. He could sound like he swallowed a dictionary, and did suffer from analysis paralysis. Great human being, tho'.
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Reply #16 January 17, 2005 5:40:56 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Reply #3 By: drmiler - 1/16/2005 9:09:33 PM

Reply #2 By: cactoblasta - 1/16/2005 10:01:46 AM But everyone else just shrugs him off as a typical American - loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser.


Maybe you could explain to me just *how* he's a *sore looser*!


I am pretty sure caCTO was refering to the democratic party and to hanoijohn kerry drmiler.... we have to give him a break after all cacto is you know pst an aussie. lmao

j/k cacto now do not get yer knickers inna bunch
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Reply #17 January 17, 2005 5:42:25 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Reply #7 By: sandy2 - 1/16/2005 11:21:59 PM
Not to me. I *voted* for him.


You like being viewed as loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser


there ya GO diagree with a lefty get attacked...
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Reply #18 January 17, 2005 9:45:08 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Bush has zero credibility from anyone, or any country, except the hardline jingoists in the USA.


Never mind the 53% of the American electorate that voted for him. It's like you guys are sitting in this room having a conversation with yourselves, trying your damnedest to not notice the elephant in the corner (pardon the coincidence). And statements like that are just one of the reasons I hold out little hope for Dems having any real success any time soon.

Finally, something I can argue with dabe about. I was beginning to wonder.

Cheers,
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Reply #19 January 18, 2005 1:21:03 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #15 By: Solnac - 1/17/2005 5:20:33 PM
Then please stop talking about me like I'm not around, you pathetic excuse for a female human being.


Dr. Miler, do your self and the rest of us a favor: cease the personal attacks, because I don't really need a reason to blacklist you: I'd enjoy it. I find you cantankerous and a thorn in my side. The only reason I've not is for any reason of 'fairness' on this blog for your extreme views. I personally do not care if you even insult liberals as a whole, but the personal attacks gotta stop. You're trolling and that's no fun for anyone. Rant off.


Personally you can do whatever you wish! You are basing all of this on one post! Start going back and look at other posts where she has made personal attacks on me and then talk to me about it if you truly want to be fair.
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Reply #20 January 18, 2005 4:46:13 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Personally you can do whatever you wish! You are basing all of this on one post! Start going back and look at other posts where she has made personal attacks on me and then talk to me about it if you truly want to be fair.


I'm basing this on your tendency to be rather crass because you feel like it, but fair enough, I will let this stand as everyone's one reminder/warning: if you personally attack someone ON THIS BLOG (I have NO other power elsewhere, and if you complain to me here how someone was mean to you there, I'll laugh at you as I'm not going to blacklist users on my blog for whatever they say on anothers if the author of that blog will tolerate it), expect me to do the same to you or give you the warning...the first time. The second time, I'll probably delete your post and blacklist you.

This sounds hypocritical considering my usual defense of you saying whatever you want. HOWEVER, when personal attacks are undertaken here, it kills any and all debate that might be going on as users try to beat the verbal crap out of each other. Saying 'liberals are loony' is even more productive, at the very least, there will be a modicrum of some defense, and not everyone has left/right leanings all the time on every issue. When you attack another user, however, that kills conversation that may go on, it boils down to the wittest retort and those of you with thinner skins get offended. Then I've got a bunch of whiny comments on my blog.

In the spirit of being a fair moderator, however, sandy2, you were a little out of line with this comment:

You like being viewed as loud, violent, whiny and a sore loser


although he did admit that it did partially describe him. I'm not sure what to do in that case. Give you a third of a warning?

Let it be known, however, I am not unfair. If you can link me to a point of evidence on THIS blog where she personally insulted YOU and not your frame of reference...(that being part of your opinions, she's fair to disagree with that, although it doesn't win class points in the debate rhetoric section) then I will issue a warning posthaste.
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Reply #21 January 19, 2005 11:35:38 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It is a relief to hear that there are still those that realize that Bush is human too. I am extremely conservative and don't mind listening to other oppinions, but I do have a problem when those "oppinions" are more of a way to rip on my oppinions. I appreciate your open minded blog and eagerly await your next
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Reply #22 January 19, 2005 8:52:32 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Your post reminds me of the commercial where the man in the car ordering a sonic "wrap" pronounces it "wah-rap" and then the companion says "its wrap... the w is silent" and the other guy goes but why would the w be silent and the other guy says "like wrench" and the first guy says "wah-rench?" and the second guy says "you've been saying wah-rench?" and the first guy says "yeah, I think you've been saying it wah-rong"... sorry if thats confusing. I just wanted to let you know though tim, the word is opinions. Please don't take this with offense, I just don't want you going through life spelling it wrong. Sorry if this comment is considered out of line, because it is not intended that way, though I see how it could be misconstrued.

Solnac, I was just asking docmiller if he enjoyed being viewed (as an american) as loud,violent, whiny and a sore loser, as I was saying Bush makes all americans be viewed. I am sorry if it offended anyone.
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Reply #23 January 19, 2005 9:55:03 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Solnac, I was just asking docmiller if he enjoyed being viewed (as an american) as loud,violent, whiny and a sore loser, as I was saying Bush makes all americans be viewed.


That's not quite fair. Most people I've spoken to thought Americans were like that well before Bush was elected. It's just that American presidents usually had the decency to pretend otherwise. Bush hasn't changed anyone's opinions, he's merely amplified them. That's the biggest problem/opportunity he poses.
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Reply #24 January 19, 2005 10:04:15 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Well... ok thats what I meant... he expands and gives credence to the belief.
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Reply #25 January 19, 2005 10:09:48 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Two things jump out at me reading this blog and the subsequent comments. The first is the damage that can be caused by an off-hand, casually tossed out remark from someone in power. As the former of a sports team, the Texas Rangers baseball team, President Bush should have known that you never say something that will end up on the lockers of an opposing team, that you never provide motivation to the opposition. I have winced at some of the remarks President Bush has made.

But the second, perhaps more striking thing that jumps out at me is that anti-American attitude. I have a hard time believing that the anti-Americanism has sprung up over the past four years.
most Australians consider Americans loud, violent sore losers,
There are over two hundred and fifty million Americans. We all fit that pattern? No deviations? You see one American, you've seen them all?

I understand that it is a generalization. But if you offered such a sweeping generalization about another group, say a race, would it not be considered prejudice? Is anti-Americanism different from saying that all blacks are lazy, all Jews avaricous? What a simple world it would be if you could know everything that there is to know about a group just by watching one member of that group on TV. "Hey, I know all about Australians, I watched the old Paul Hogan show!"

Such attitudes reflect a world view that doesn't seek understanding or conciliation, only confirmation of what you want to believe. It is easier, less complex and requiring less thought if you can pidgeon-hole entire groups. You eliminate those inconvenient shades of gray. Never mind that President Bush recently donated his own money to Tsumani relief or that the US fleet set sail to help the survivors. (And yes, I know that Australia has donated deeply to help the victims, at one point leading the world in donations.) Never mind that when an earthquake devastated part of Iran, America was the first to send aid to that country.

It is easy to stereotype, harder to deal with the subtleties of life. In countless movies, Germans of the World War II era are all shown as Nazis. But during World War II, many Germans gave aid to the Jews. Elisabeth Abegg, for example, was a member of the German Quakers. She personally saved dozens of Jews, at risk to her own life. She is celebrated at the Simon Weisenthal Museum of Tolerance here: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t000/t00013.html

Do not judge all Americans by the remarks of one man. Judge us instead by our deeds as a nation. Remember the good we do as well as the harm. Weigh these fairly and see where the balance lies.

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