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terpfan1980
Join Date 08/2004
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Marine's sentence sparks debate

January 9, 2005 1:58:15 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
From The Washington Times: Marine's sentence sparks debate
By Julia Duin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Seventh-day Adventists are criticizing the Marine Corps for sentencing a Marine to seven months in prison for refusing to bear arms after undergoing a religious conversion.
Adventist officials recently enlisted the help of two members of Congress — Rep. Dale E. Kildee, Michigan Democrat, and Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett, Maryland Republican — in demanding an explanation of why Marine Cpl. Joel D. Klimkewicz, 24, of Birch Run, Mich., was given the lengthy sentence.
"In 36 years of dealing with these cases, this is the first one I've seen go so far," said Richard O. Stenbakken, a retired U.S. Army chaplain and Seventh-day Adventist Church pastor. Until recently, Mr. Stenbakken headed chaplaincy ministries for the 13.4 million-member church. "This is way over the edge.
"There is no reason anyone should get a felony conviction for a religious conversion. The prosecuting attorney said they needed to make an example of him, but there are much more elegant ways to handle it."
When ordered May 12, 2004, to draw a weapon from the unit's armory for a training exercise, the Marine refused.
He was sentenced to imprisonment, loss of pay, reduction in rank to private and given a bad conduct discharge for the felony conviction. The Marine, now Pvt. Klimkewicz, entered prison Dec. 14, the same day he was court-martialed at Camp Lejeune, N.C., one of the nation's largest Marine Corps bases.
Marine Capt. Jeff Pool, spokesman for the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune, said Pvt. Klimkewicz, was denied conscientious objector status on March 3, 2004.
"There is a certain criteria in meeting CO status and he didn't meet it," Capt. Pool said. "The military has to grant this."
Pvt. Klimkewicz served with the Marines from 1999 to 2002, during which time he experienced a religious conversion. In 2002, he re-enlisted for two more years.
But by the time he joined the church in the summer of 2003, he had volunteered for two separate deployments in which he would help clear land mines in Iraq, a task that would not require him to carry a weapon or kill anyone.
In cases of religious conversion, a service member is usually given a noncombat assignment or an administrative discharge. However, Pvt. Klimkewicz was charged with "disobeying a lawful order" to carry a weapon.
"The Marine Corps, in its zeal to prevent others from avoiding combat, has totally misread this soldier and the result is a serious miscarriage of justice," Adventist Church attorney Mitchell Tyner said. "We hope the Corps will reconsider the total disproportional nature of the sentence and reduce it immediately."


... more at linked article

Wow. Tough to know where to fall on this issue.

I support the individuals right to be a CO (conscientious objector), but that is dangerous territory when dealing with an individual that makes an 11th hour conversion. Dating back to the Muhammad Ali case, and well before, there have been issues such as this where individuals object to bearing arms, or taking up arms against others. I admire this individual for apparently volunteering for non-combat roles, but at the same time, failure to follow a lawful order is a serious offense in the military, especially in times of war and when enterring a combat zone.

Worth discussion."
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terpfan1980
kingbee
Join Date 04/2004
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Reply #1 January 9, 2005 2:16:31 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Dating back to the Muhammad Ali case, and well before, there have been issues such as this where individuals object to bearing arms, or taking up arms against others


ali caught five years for refusing induction but that's a different issue than insubordination.  i cant imagine why this guy reupped; he deserves 7 months in the brig just for idiocy.  absent that, i pretty much agree that he shouldnt be forced to violate the dictates of his conscience--and that the alternate duty for which he volunteered would seem to evidence he's not just trying to get outta fulfilling his commitment.   i guess it boils down to you can only volunteer for that which is offered. 

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terpfan1980
drmiler
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #2 January 9, 2005 4:41:41 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #1 By: kingbee - 1/9/2005 2:16:31 PM
-and that the alternate duty for which he volunteered would seem to evidence he's not just trying to get outta fulfilling his commitment.


Before I start, I am in no way saying that him being a CO is bad. Far from it, it's his choice. But if your going to be a "marine" then you *will* attend weapons practice. They didn't say go out and shoot at someone! So he deserves what he got and more. If he won't attend weapons practice then I believe (and so did the court marshall board) that he is trying to get out of fulfilling his commitment by not obeying the lawful order.
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terpfan1980
whoman69
Join Date 10/2004
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Reply #3 January 9, 2005 5:58:45 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
He can be religious and still go to weapons practice. Noone was asking him to kill anyone and go against his religious convictions. However to get into the marines he had already fired a weapon. I have no more sympathy for this individual than I do for those who sign up for the military to get paid and get college benefits, but are incredulous that they could actually be called to combat.
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terpfan1980
Moderateman
Join Date 11/2004
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Reply #4 January 9, 2005 7:02:52 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I THINK THAT C.O. STATUS should be done before bullets start flying..... c.o. status should not be confused with cowardice.
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terpfan1980
drmiler
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Reply #5 January 9, 2005 7:46:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #3 By: whoman69 - 1/9/2005 5:58:45 PM
He can be religious and still go to weapons practice. Noone was asking him to kill anyone and go against his religious convictions. However to get into the marines he had already fired a weapon. I have no more sympathy for this individual than I do for those who sign up for the military to get paid and get college benefits, but are incredulous that they could actually be called to combat.


He wasn't being called to combat (as a matter of fact he was already given 2 seperate non-combat assignments) and CO's aren't either. They don't want someone on the frontline who would not/ could not pull the trigger when needed.
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terpfan1980
XX
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Reply #6 January 9, 2005 8:27:33 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Hmm Marines deals with guns. Boy, he's in the wrong proffession...
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terpfan1980
sandy2
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #7 January 9, 2005 11:05:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
CO status is very tricky to ...understand I guess. You see, personally, I can not kill another person, I would not be able to do it for any other reason than to protect my life or the life of my family or the life of other loved ones or possibly even an innocent bystander, and I mean in imminent direct danger when I mean to protect the life. I would absolutley not be able to personally fire the shot that killed a soldier, or more importantly an innocent civilian. Yet I wouldnt' qualify for CO status because I do believe that war is sometimes necesary (i.e. Direct Defense, civil war, though that was again pretty much a defense action of the north but whatever), yet I wouldn't be able to get my self to kill people in the war... I don't believe.
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terpfan1980
drmiler
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Reply #8 January 10, 2005 3:01:03 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #7 By: sandy2 - 1/9/2005 11:05:55 PM
CO status is very tricky to ...understand I guess. You see, personally, I can not kill another person, I would not be able to do it for any other reason than to protect my life or the life of my family or the life of other loved ones or possibly even an innocent bystander, and I mean in imminent direct danger when I mean to protect the life. I would absolutley not be able to personally fire the shot that killed a soldier, or more importantly an innocent civilian. Yet I wouldnt' qualify for CO status because I do believe that war is sometimes necesary (i.e. Direct Defense, civil war, though that was again pretty much a defense action of the north but whatever), yet I wouldn't be able to get my self to kill people in the war... I don't believe.


Well then if you didn't qualify as a CO *or* a religious convert then you would spend time in the brig for failure to obey a lawful order. Good thing your not an American ain't it?
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terpfan1980
latour999
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #9 January 10, 2005 10:09:35 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
That just about says it all, doesn't it? Why re-up if you're a CO?


perhaps he wanted to be of assistance in non-combat roles, such as his previous experience clearing land mines.
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terpfan1980
sandy2
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Reply #10 January 10, 2005 10:09:39 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Good thing your not an American ain't it?


...I'm not an American? Since when. Did my citizenship get changed behind my back...hmmm someone did make the comment that my passport picture showed me nervous like I was being deported... thoguh I was sick.
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terpfan1980
dharmagrl
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #11 January 10, 2005 10:28:33 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Pvt. Klimkewicz served with the Marines from 1999 to 2002, during which time he experienced a religious conversion. In 2002, he re-enlisted for two more years.


That just about says it all, doesn't it?  Why re-up if you're a CO?

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terpfan1980
drmiler
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #12 January 11, 2005 12:16:25 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #9 By: sandy2 - 1/10/2005 10:09:39 PM
Good thing your not an American ain't it?


...I'm not an American? Since when. Did my citizenship get changed behind my back...hmmm someone did make the comment that my passport picture showed me nervous like I was being deported... thoguh I was sick.


I "greatly" apologize! I was under the false *assumpution* that you were Austrailian? My bad. My mind must be going faster than I thought.
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terpfan1980
drmiler
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Reply #13 January 11, 2005 12:19:55 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #11 By: latour999 - 1/10/2005 10:09:35 PM
That just about says it all, doesn't it? Why re-up if you're a CO?


perhaps he wanted to be of assistance in non-combat roles, such as his previous experience clearing land mines.


Well given his *previous* experience, then he knew better. He knew going in that he would be required to attend weapons practice! In which case I would feel no compunction at sentencing him to brig time! Stinking goldbricking slacker!
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