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MSStyles=clones, clones and more clones?

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BlueDev
image
Join Date 12/2004
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Reply #51 December 18, 2004 9:16:03 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
While it is true that windowblinds is clearly the better choice for windows customization, dont forget the fact that most of the people over in the msstyles community and at neowin are probably in their teens or in college; some of us really are working out of our parent's homes . Many have pretty much grown immune to the whole piracy and 'getting something for nothing' idea, napster, kazaa, etc. and dont exactly have credits card numbers, online accounts, or money to spare for making desktops look nice...
Yes, there is wb shareware (which im running ), but it leaves several items unskinned (scrollbars,toolbars, progress anims, menus) which really takes away from otherwise excellent visual styles. Given the choice between running an incomplete program with annoying ads and a free hack that can do the same *basic* things as the complete prog, i think most would probably choose the latter. Not that big of a surprise then, that msstyles now appeals to a much wider variety of people compared to wb...
However, i do agree that the quality of msstyles and the whole msstyles community has gone downhill. Just reading the threads over the whole bant fiasco made me sick...woohoo, now hes back and everyone flocks around and lavishes him with praise when they were just flaming him a few months ago ...
As for the quality of the skins, im sure we could easily clean up the proliferation of 'bulky' wb's if there were more *constructive* criticism. The skins that have lower number of downloads oftentimes also often have a lower number of comments; why should this be? Personally, i want to see a day where all the skins on wc are the same caliber (but of unique styles of course) as those by adni18, morphium, tiggz ,^^gabriel, essorant, and other great skinners. Sorry bout the long rambling post, hope i made some sense?
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BlueDev
GreenReaper
Join Date 05/2001
+32
Reply #52 December 18, 2004 9:32:35 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I think perhaps this is because there is little incentive to comment on a skin that you do not like. If it's really bad you won't download it either. Perhaps if people - either users in general or skin authors - could give credit for "good comments", with an award for the top X commenters, we might see more people looking to give helpful comments? Just an idea.
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BlueDev
BlueDev
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #53 December 18, 2004 10:42:32 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
image: That was a good post, and I think you bring up some valid points. I can totally understand high school and young college kids would opt for the free alternative. That makes sense. Bashing WB because it isn't free though just seems to demonstrate a juvenile attitude. I have tried to never bash the idea of the uxtheme.dll hack because I think it is a great option for those who want that route.

Yeah, I quietly read the threads about MSStyles and such, and find the bickering sort of humorous. But for the sake of the community I hope they can grow out of it. GreenReaper brings up a good point. It is hard to have the motivation to download and make constructive comments on a skin that you really don't like. I think he has a great idea on how to motivate constructive criticism.
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BlueDev
smoke-tetsu
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #54 December 18, 2004 12:54:47 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I make skins here for fun and to improve my desktop experience. Not out of obligation to strangers on the net.
Let me rephrase that.... In other words, when making a skin I have a certain layout in mind I truly consider the layout to be an integral part of the skin as a whole. In the past I have concidered changing my skins to please everyone but in the end it just created a huge amount of work to be done when a skin needs to be updated to the latest versions of the software and that burned me out on skinning.

As a matter of fact being able to have the buttons whereever the artist wants them is the major advantage and why I choose to use WB . Those who only want their buttons on the right might as well just use MS Styles. If releasing a skin (for free I might add) automatically obligates me to have to please everyone then I don't want to release any skins, ever. For example, I like to make my skins with the buttons on the left with certain features. I have also made skins that are like Enlightenment on linux which wildly vary in appearence. If I release my skins then the target audience is people who are like minded to me or who are looking for a change. If other people hate it there are thousands of alternatives for them to choose from.

If someone hired me to make a skin however then yes, there would be an obligation to please the ones who hired me or the customer. To me it's pretty much the same having every single skin the exact same layout just because someone tells you that it's the "correct" way to do it as releasing recolors of the same skin over and over.
Saying a certain layout is the correct way to do things when you are free to change it is like saying square is the only correct shape for a titlebar button and light grey is the only correct color scheme for an interface.

Another thought however, I myself have been using skins for years and I'm used to the idea of buttons being in different places in different skins and I quickly adapt. It's a good thing to be able to adapt to different things and to keep an open mind to different things. If people can't adapt to small things such as the titlebar buttons being on the left I can imagine them not being able to adapt to new environmental situations and going extinct.

Sorry if I come off sounding harsh and I'm not here to debate but I just want skinning to be fun and not just a job that you don't get paid for or merely a popularity contest for self verification.

In the good old days when skins weren't quite yet in the mainstream artists where free to do as they wish with their skins and they where praised for originality. Now people get complicated on you trying to force you to keep things in the "right place" and I'm like just because microsoft decided to put the buttons in that place that doesn't mean it's the only way to do things. If skinning is to be an art form then take for example, painting. If you also think there is only one correct way to paint you are dismissing all the talented artists who do things in a different style than your chosen "correct" painter.

That being said I'd rather stay out of it and keep my skins for a select few than have to deal with bickering. When not being paid for my efforts I don't have the time nor the energy to try to please everyone in the whole world. People are also free to mod skins for personal use, I have no problem with that.
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BlueDev
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
+2415 sdemperor
Reply #55 December 18, 2004 1:21:08 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

i think most would probably choose the latter. Not that big of a surprise then, that msstyles now appeals to a much wider variety of people compared to wb...

Actually that's not remotely true. The # of WindowBlinds users dwarfs the # of msstyles users.  I think you are vastly overestimating the # of people willing to patch their system files, copying individual files into a particular Windows system directory for each skin all so that they can have a slightly different version of Luna (typically).

Whereas with WindowBlinds, it's a free download that they just install and can instantly run skins. People who get into it won't consider $20 significant. And those who don't care that much about it aren't going to think much about the missing scrollbars and such.

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BlueDev
image
Join Date 12/2004
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Reply #56 December 19, 2004 4:37:32 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
About the whole popularity thing, to be honest i was making a general statement from my own browsing experience. i can see there are about 3200+ wb's just by looking at the sidebar here, but with msstyles, it's a bit like trying to track al qaeda what with the decentralized format and the number of remakes. Is it possible to give us some figures for a nice side-by-side comparison? Dont get me wrong, i love wb and have used it for well over a year now, so ive gotten used to the missing stuff. Guess its just a personal kinda thing too, not into buying stuff online =/...would you need a credit card or pay-pal or that kinda thing to buy? noobish question i kno hehe
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BlueDev
GreenReaper
Join Date 05/2001
+32
Reply #57 December 19, 2004 6:18:09 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
smoke-tetsu: Nobody is going to force you to make your skins conform to what users expect. Just accept that the community has changed (it's no coincidence that "Joe User" is the name of one WC sister site), and many (most?) people here aren't here to appreciate artwork. They want something that they can use on their machines to make it look cool. Note the "they can use": people are lazy, having to adapt to something is hassle for them. So they don't. And they may complain about that in the comments and rate your skin down for it not being what they wanted, even though pleasing them wasn't your objective. People are like that.

I think the rating system here at WinCustomize encourages this. Considering the rating is meant to showcase skins that are geared to the site audience, perhaps this is acceptable, but I would personally prefer one that had separate components for things like originality, technical quality and how much the users liked using the skin. That way people would be encouraged to say "Well, I think the look is interesting, I just don't find it particularly easy to use". After all, you can't always do everything in a skin.

If you want it to be fun without the hassle of having to please everyone, then don't try to; just upload skins and don't change them based on user opinion/comments (unless it's something you agree would add to the skin's concept). You could say that specifically in the description or comments, or implicitly by not changing it. Just don't expect everyone to like your skin and appreciate its qualities if it's not what they were looking for!
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BlueDev
scion2412
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #58 December 19, 2004 12:20:41 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Not only is there a complete lack of creativity in that community, it seems almost like standard operating procedure to completely rip off other artists without giving any mention of the original artists work at all. in this case, this person took all of the desgin credit. look for yourself, here's a link to a total ripoff of my Reinkiller skin http://www.themexp.org/preview.php?mid=78887&type=vs&view=date&page=&cat=&name=Rex+SqaD.zip

and the link for the real deal here on wincustomize
https://www.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=4615&LibID=1&comments=1
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BlueDev
GreenReaper
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Reply #59 December 19, 2004 12:35:51 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Generously wrapped with adware, I see.
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BlueDev
GreenReaper
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Reply #60 December 19, 2004 1:28:11 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Well, I included a light version in Blackcomb, so there!

Carrots in skins . . . sounds like a new trend! CarrotXP!
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BlueDev
GreenReaper
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Reply #61 December 19, 2004 1:59:27 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Yeah, I know what you mean.

The one thing I hate, people who complain about something, you tell them it can't be done for some technical reason, and they claim that a) you're lazy or the software sucks and go off in a huff. Rare, but it happens. Fortunately you can rely on someone else to come in and scold them for being churlish. *g*
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BlueDev
smoke-tetsu
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Reply #62 December 19, 2004 2:16:02 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Well that's the thing GreenReaper, I don't expect everyone to like anything that I might make simply because you can't please all of the people all of the time. Now, if it's a bug report then that is a nice thing to have. But if you want variety and to be able to truly take advantage of the software's capablities you need to have skins that take advantage of the skins software and not be all the same including layout. I don't expect for my stuff to be all things to all people and no one should expect me to make it that way. Case in point, dark skins. Not everyone likes dark skins, but does that mean dark skins should not ever be made or all dark skin makers should consider including a light skin as a substyle with their dark skins? I don't think so. Or an even more extreme example, let's say having a carrot in the titlebar was one day considered by everyone to be the correct thing to have on a skin. Do all skin authors need to consider putting carrots in their titlebars so everyone will like their skins? (lmao) Anyway, If even just one or two other people like my skin then that's alright with me. Niche groups need skins too.
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BlueDev
smoke-tetsu
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #63 December 19, 2004 2:41:14 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
That's your perogative and I respect that, but you also got to respect a persons perogative not to include a light version for whatever reason. That's just an example anyway, there are many hundreds of things that people could demand.
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BlueDev
smoke-tetsu
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Reply #64 December 19, 2004 2:59:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
That actually reminds me of the time I was given a hard time by a prominent commercial skin artist (who shall go nameless) because a skin I made wasn't skinning the favorites menu in IE but at the time WB didn't have that capability, so I couldn't have done it anyway even if I wanted to. Thinking back I'm pretty sure that person was just making WMP\mp3 player skins at that time but I am not totally sure, seems like it when you consider how they didn't know that at the time WB couldn't skin the favorites menu in IE.
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BlueDev
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #65 December 19, 2004 6:13:57 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

At work I have the spreadsheet that goes over the # of new visual styles (for any format) hat have been found. It uses pretty much every site that has msstyles on it as well as ones we come across on message boards.  We then do the same with WindowBlinds.  In purely raw numbers, about 20% more WindowBlinds were made last year.  And WB has a significant disadvantage there since in raw numbers, quite a few of those msstyles are "Hey looks, it's ANOTHER Panther theme and another colored Luna and another take on Royale!". That happens on WB but not remotely to the same extent.

Then you have downloads. That is harder to measure because some sites count downloads based on accesses of files. Others base it on # of completed downloads. And others (like WC) go by the # of different users who have downloaded the skin.  But even with that disavantage, WB skins tend to have a higher "download" count.

Those are pretty good measures of it I'd say. There's also WB's increasing # of sales over the years.

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BlueDev
GreenReaper
Join Date 05/2001
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Reply #66 December 19, 2004 6:38:49 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Looks like the Stardock conspiracy theorists were right all along - they are watching us!

And I think someone's working on the site, because I'm pretty sure I wasn't moved back to the second page last time I posted a comment. Still not on edit, though.
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BlueDev
Lurchybaby
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #67 December 24, 2004 1:25:49 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I wouldn't worry too much about what those over at Neowin have to say. In my opinion (and I've been a member of that site since Aug of 2001) there seems to be a large number of "kids" (figuratively and literally) on that site. I rarely go there now, because Neowin's not what it once was.
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BlueDev
BlueDev
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Reply #68 December 24, 2004 2:25:37 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I rarely go there now, because Neowin's not what it once was.


Sadly, I agree. I find just a lot of juvenile attitudes. It still is a good site for news and such, but comments and the forums are just not strong anymore.
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BlueDev
MSethWeisberg
Join Date 09/2001
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Reply #69 December 26, 2004 5:28:31 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
neowin is still a great customizing place, but the vast majority of themes there are mods of luna or longhorn. People need to become original and think outside the box for lack of a better saying. It's not that they aren't mature, it's that the themes have become stale and used.
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BlueDev
BlueDev
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #70 December 26, 2004 7:37:23 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
It's not that they aren't mature, it's that the themes have become stale and used.


In part I agree. Not 100% though.

I don't think the lack of originality in the skins being made is attributable to immaturity in the sense I mentioned above. However, the foolish comments bashing anything Stardock, or anything that is original in the slightest is directly correlated to a maturity level. Making constructive, thoughtful feedback requires a certain degree of maturity, while simply saying "that sUx0rs" does not.
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BlueDev
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
+2415 sdemperor
Reply #71 December 27, 2004 1:17:05 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

It does make it less inviting to go over to a place and show off a new, original skin only to have a half dozen mom's basement dwellers come on and call it "fugly".  Clinical proof that too many wedgies in high school make geeks bitter.

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BlueDev
MSethWeisberg
Join Date 09/2001
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Reply #72 December 27, 2004 5:58:50 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
It does make it less inviting to go over to a place and show off a new, original skin only to have a half dozen mom's basement dwellers come on and call it "fugly". Clinical proof that too many wedgies in high school make geeks bitter.


And yet everytime someone has a mod on classic or luna or mac or longhorn its a hit. Makes you wonder sometimes if anyone has any original creativity left in them.

But take for example over at neowin the teaser Bant has over his new design. Just a screenshot and it is different, something original. That I truly waiting for.
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BlueDev
nkj
Join Date 10/2001
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Reply #73 December 27, 2004 6:56:01 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Both of them have their own benefits. I personally use visual styles just because their more themes for it that i like. (I am not implying that there are more visual styles than windoblinds styles ).
The reason why there are so many same longhorn/panther style skins is becasue people like them and hence use them. Thats one of the reason u see the ports of Stefanka's msstyles to windowblinds.
I think having two ways of themeing your computers only helps them each other mutually.
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BlueDev
colossus72
Join Date 12/2004
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Reply #74 January 3, 2005 7:23:45 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
"When the news regarding this Christmas suite was posted over at Neowin it instantly met with comment after comment about how it was fugly, bloated, hideous, and so on. One person even had the audacity to say that "Somebody needs to take a couple design courses!" Yet, just look at the page over at Wincustomize. It has well over 250,000 downloads."

Maybe it comes down to personal taste? I think that Xmas Suite was overwrought, byzantine, bloated, nonfunctional, etc.

It's like some people like a certain style to decorate their homes, others like another. Like French Provincial vs. Modern Minimalist. I think the most elegant designs follow their function, to me that Xmas suite is like a rubber o-ring encased in a Krispy Kreme donut.

So it boils down to taste, pure and simple, and snotty articles like this won't make me say that Xmas theme looks good or looks like it's easy to use, because I simply do not think so, it disagrees with what I fundamentally like in a vs and in design in general.I don't care if goddamned Walt Disney himself hand drew the thing.

To me something like this is far more elegant, refined and useful:

http://www.customize.org/details/34773

You may think it's barely off the default or whatever, but it's not. It's clever, good design. That design is about a useful, sleek, functional and (I think) beautiful interface. But I imagine it's not your taste, not enough animations or birds chirping in the background or whatever. But that's okay, you know, long live the difference.


Hah! Emoticon thingies.
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BlueDev
colossus72
Join Date 12/2004
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Reply #75 January 3, 2005 7:59:11 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
And just a quick point on the number of downloads as some sort indicator of quality: I think, say, the Postal Service is a much better musical act than Britney Spears. Who sold more records?
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