Game is on the right way » Forum Post by TAG

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Made this chart a long time ago.

Ashes	Starcraft II	Total Annihilation	Sins of a Solar Empire
13 units per side	13 units per side	46	19 units per side
Unit caps TBD	Yes	No	Yes
18+ structures	49 structures	36+ structures	18+ structures
Unlimited production queue	Up to 5	Unlimited production queue	Unlimited production queue
Additional Engineers can speed up production	No	Additional constructors can speed up production	Tech upgrades to speed production
Resources never run out	Resources run out	Resources never run out	Resources never run out
No water terrain	No water terrain	Water terrain with ships	‘Terrain’ via special gravity wells
LOS FOW	Circular FOW	Circular FOW	Planetary FoW’ish
Physics based weapons	Weapons purely vision/range based	Physics based weapons	Weapons purely vision/range based
Terrain has cliffs, mountains and other meaningful obstructions	Terrain has meaningful obstructions	Terrain has cliffs, mountains and other meaningful obstructions	Terrain has meaningful obstructions, but is easy avoided
Flying units fly	Flying units hover	Flying units fly/land	Flying units fly
Weapons can miss	Weapons never miss	Weapons can miss	Weapons can miss
Resources have storage buildings	Resources are stored automatically	Resources have storage buildings	Resources are stored automatically
Resources spent as item is being built	Resources spent on giving build order	Resources spent as item is being built	Resources spent on giving build order
No limit on giving build orders	Resources required to give build order	No limit on giving build orders	Resources required to give build order
Units to scale	Units not to scale	Units scaled to one another/structures	Units not to scale (mostly)
Units/Buildings can be limited during game setup	No	Units/Buildings can be limited during game setup	No
Campaign, victory conditions; sandbox	Full SP campaign; sandbox	Campaign, sandbox (online)	None; Sandbox
Unit AI does its best to get in position and avoid taking damage (i.e. dog fights and supporting other units in its "group")	No	No	No
No doomsday weapons in our design at this time.	No long range units, no doomsday units	Nukes / Big Bertha	Yes, super weapons, mobile starbases, titans
Seed prevents early harassment	Supports harassing and raiding other players early	Commander unit prevents early harassment.	Supports harassing and raiding other players early
Carriers, but that's it.	Medivac transport provides fast mobility of small armies	Orbital transporters moves units between planets; Egg unit moves Commanders	Carriers, but that’s it.
Units can have special abilities	Units can have special abilities	No other than d-gun.	Units can have special abilities
Group units form a "meta" unit that acts a single cohesive unit	Grouped units are simply big mobs.	Grouped units are simply big mobs.	Grouped units are essentially mobs with targeting priorities.
Victory can be obtained in multiple ways (Victory Points OR annihilation)	Annihilation only	Annihilation only	Military, Diplomatic, Research, Occupation, Capital, Flagship Victory Types
Each unit type is distinct	Each unit type is distinct	Bots and vehicles are largely redundant. T2 units mostly bigger version of T1s.	Each unit type has some distinctions.
4 player multiplayer	16 players(?)	8 player multiplayer	10 player multiplayer
Highly moddable	Highly moddable	Highly moddable	Highly moddable

+1

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

TA is a sub-genre of RTS. Most RTSs do not qualify as TA-like. They are characterised by the following:

A single commander unit (game over if this dies, by default)
Streaming economy
Simulated projectiles
Wreckages
No/Few Magic or Special abilities
Visible construction of units (They aren't trained and then simply appear)
No "Food" restrictions/need to build structures to increase pop cap

I don't know if I'd call TA a sub-genre. But if I did, I'd probably focus on the streaming economy as the main/key factor.

In Ashes it's:

Player starts out with a seed unit that secures their home base (similar to Company of Heroes's home base)
Streaming economy
Simulated projectiles
No wreckages are planned in 1.0 (we may revisit this based on time/budget)
Some units do have special abilities but they're not anywhere near the micro level you'd see in say Starcraft
Visible construction of units
Pop cap is increased by building logistics arrays which in turn require power provided by the power generators captured on the map (otherwise, someone with enough time could literally build an impossible turtle to crack because of the sheer size/scope of the maps)

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Ticktoc

Join Date 03/2015

+85

Some people will want/expect a nuke but i don't mind that.

I do wish there was more than 13 units a side, even if it was primarily for visual variety with some function overlap. The units in Ashes, at least on the side without the shielding, so far look quite similar, floating, rectangular, all with hover engines on, just with a slightly different chassis and array of guns (a little harsh and perhaps premature but their profiles are quite similar). SC only has thirteen units but they do look very different from each other. TA vehicles and bots also had their own very distinctive look (and different role for different situations).

I do hope there is some wreckage, even if it does not block/hinder the active units. A big battle of several hundred/thousand units and no debris on the ground? Bit of a killer of that feeling of grand epic scale war. Walking along in the TA/Supcom games and coming across a site of a great battle was very cool.

If you upped the multiplayer limit to 6 players then I would buy two more copies of the game right now for my brothers

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TAG_Utter

Join Date 03/2015

+18

From what I saw in the video that we have in Vault for Founders I think the zoom out ,is further than in Forged Alliance but i can be rong.

I think it's really possible to find a new method of removing icons.

test

Has we see ,not always easy even with icons separate with zoom out the units we want,try find on left the units on the right.

Its just an ex ,has maybe we showld look for other options like they are doing.

If we analyze well, can become quite confusing, so I agree with another option ,that is different to the traditional method, innovate its what we need.

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Hi all...(first post)

Very interested in this game, although being a Fa/Pa fan there is also a lot I was hoping for that's not in this game. I enjoyed Sins very much though so I'm I'm still looking forward to this.

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Just stopping by to say, again, that I liked everything you told us about the game so far, Frogboy. I am eager now to get more info on units.

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ASADDF

Join Date 02/2008

+50

its fine with me not turning the units into icons, i think its gonna be cooler to play with the map moving around everywhere.

I want to see whats happening in the map and not seeing icons or dots, Anyway, I like a good zoom out in an RTS game but not all the way out for me to stop seeing my units at all.

I think AOTS is going to be great designing it that way by making War more interesting to look at, and Remember that "meta-units" that act together as a single, coherent, massive unit. it means that you don't need to stay there all the time.

ohh and please add wreckage to the game.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 26

Orbital transporters moves units between planets; Egg unit moves Commanders

Eh, you may have made a small mistake there, Frogboy.

Quoting Ticktoc,

reply 28

I do wish there was more than 13 units a side, even if it was primarily for visual variety with some function overlap. The units in Ashes, at least on the side without the shielding, so far look quite similar, floating, rectangular, all with hover engines on, just with a slightly different chassis and array of guns (a little harsh and perhaps premature but their profiles are quite similar). SC only has thirteen units but they do look very different from each other. TA vehicles and bots also had their own very distinctive look (and different role for different situations).

I think the most important thing with units is some character.

An army of Mammoth tanks backed by Krogoths and Orcas with Big Bertha providing fire-support sounds way more exciting than a group of tanks and robots with fighter and artillery support if you get my drift.

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Quoting racso5,

reply 25

Quoting Aulex,

reply 23

IMO the lack of not being able to fully zoom out and see the entire map and not having strategic icons will be an artificial cap for making good decisions. If you want people to make good decisions you want to give them as much info as possible, by allowing players to see the entire map they're given all of that, but without icons it will be extremely difficult to distinguish any units. Artificial skill caps or restrictions usually aren't a nice thing to do to players.

Well from a high-level perspective restrictions are necessary to help define the design of a game and encourage fun gameplay. For example, technically fog of war is an artificial restriction. The difference is that it is an accepted and expected restriction. For those who are accustomed to icons being present when zooming out, they will expect this in AotS as well and when they don't see it they will see it as an artificial restriction that hinders gameplay. But for those who are used to games such as StarCraft or Company of Heroes, it may not bother them.

So basically depending on the background of the player some may see it as a problem, others may not, and some may even agree with Frogboy and like the absence of icons. Like with many factors in game design, not everyone will be pleased. And it is difficult to determine the quantity of people that are in favor or against any particular feature because not every player makes their opinion heard. Even if everyone on the forums complained, it may not actually represent the majority opinion of the entire community. For this, I think that an in-game survey system (similar to what Relic implemented with Company of Heroes 2) would be more effective method of obtaining as many opinions as possible.

At the end of the day however, the people who create the game have the final decision whether or not that decision aligns with popular opinion from the community (which can evolve and change over time).

The biggest issue I see with the lack of icons is that they are strictly beneficial - a player who manages to mod them in in some shape or form will have a distinct advantage over one who does not. and it's because of this that it's absence will be questioned - people coming from any kind of Sup Com/ PA background will see it as a step backwards. Are you currently able to issue orders when zoomed out? If so, people with larger resolution screens are going to have an advantage over those who do not, since they can more readily issue orders from a greater zoom level anyway (because units will be clearer). Icons simply level the playing field here.

Having icons (but further out than those of sup com), but not able to issue orders to them, would actually be a better way IMO of preventing the game being played from a high zoom, without the same feeling of a missing feature or providing some players with an advantage due to their hardware.

Quoting Adridos,

reply 33

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 26

Orbital transporters moves units between planets; Egg unit moves Commanders

Eh, you may have made a small mistake there, Frogboy.

Hehe yep, that's Planetary Annihilation ... sorta (the Egg concept never eventuated) . Also, TA did have true LOS as well as circular LOS - it was an option in the game setup.

Quoting Adridos,

reply 33

I think the most important thing with units is some character.

An army of Mammoth tanks backed by Krogoths and Orcas with Big Bertha providing fire-support sounds way more exciting than a group of tanks and robots with fighter and artillery support if you get my drift.

I agree with your point, but feel obliged to point out that the Mammoth and Orca aren't Cavedog units

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Quoting Raevn,

reply 34

Having icons (but further out than those of sup com), but not able to issue orders to them, would actually be a better way IMO of preventing the game being played from a high zoom, without the same feeling of a missing feature or providing some players with an advantage due to their hardware.

I really like this idea. It would be interesting to read Frogboy's response to this.

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How about giving meta units icons.

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Quoting Raevn,

reply 34

I agree with your point, but feel obliged to point out that the Mammoth and Orca aren't Cavedog units

I know. It's simply that I wanted to list a few of the more iconic RTS units out there. Blizzard's been the king at this back in the day but their approach of units with portraits and such doesn't really match up with AotS at all, hence the C&C comparison. A game that's much closer to AotS in this department and yet still managed to not screw this aspect of RTS design up.

That's in direct comparison to a game like Grey Goo where the closest they've gotten to a characteristic unit is the Hand of Ruk.

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Timmaigh

Join Date 05/2009

+76

Quoting Adridos,

reply 37

Quoting Raevn,

reply 34

I agree with your point, but feel obliged to point out that the Mammoth and Orca aren't Cavedog units

I know. It's simply that I wanted to list a few of the more iconic RTS units out there. Blizzard's been the king at this back in the day but their approach of units with portraits and such doesn't really match up with AotS at all, hence the C&C comparison. A game that's much closer to AotS in this department and yet still managed to not screw this aspect of RTS design up.

That's in direct comparison to a game like Grey Goo where the closest they've gotten to a characteristic unit is the Hand of Ruk.

I concur that GreyGoo is massively lacking in unit rosters/overall faction design.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 24

We don't want to have an endless community battle where people are arguing against "micro" because they want to play the game zoomed all the way out.

Strategic zoom is not a way to play the game all along, but a most convenient map navigation tool that exists, a more convenient version of minimap. Zoom in-out loop provides visual link between location you're in, entire map and location you're heading to, giving an overview of entire game situation. It's not really possible to play SupCom zoomed out. Also, micromanagement avoidance is an entirely separate concern regarding units AI and interface automation aimed to APM requirement reduction. Micromanagement avoidance does not require strategic zoom, since it don't provide user operation count reduction over ordinary minimap navigation (out-move-in versus move-click-move), strategic zoom is all about providing more info and usability (screen-sized map with readable icons versus small minimap without any info beside presence of players' objects).

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Strategic zoom is not a way to play the game all along, but a most convenient map navigation tool that exists

I totally agree, and also it does away with the need for a mini map thus freeing up screen space for all those fancy graphics. Tbh I think mini maps aren't much use anyway when I play more "Micro" style rts games coh/dow2 for eg things can change so quickly I don't like to take my focus from the center of the screen I just use the mouse/keyboard controls to move quickly around the real map....

Edit sry havn't learned how the quote system works on this forum yet.

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Yarlen

Join Date 01/2005

+367

Assuming we don't screw up, you should be able to play the game from the Empire Tree if you want to remain zoomed way out.

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Timmaigh

Join Date 05/2009

+76

To me personally, Empire Tree never worked in Sins. It was always so much easier to navigate on the zoom out starmap than looking up for something in a list/sheet.

I wonder what other people thought about it, whether there are actually some, who think it was brilliant addition and used it all the time, cause as far i am concerned, it was overrated and while Sins had no doubt superb UI/HUD and was a joy to play, it was not down to Empire Tree on bit IMO. Most of the times i would turn the shit out of it off and my only regret was, you could not turn it off completely.

Since its going to be implemented into Ashes, i guess someone had to say this.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

There's some new stuff in the founder's vault on this topic that you may find useful.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 44

There's some new stuff in the founder's vault on this topic that you may find useful.

Still don't agree. Okay you don't want people to zoom out. So why do you even have a zoom? What is the point of a zoom feature if the player has to hurt their eyes to make out where stuff is? If you want players to only use the minimap then completely remove the zoom features.

I don't have an inherent problem with game that have no zoom, but from all what I can see so far you are trying to do something in the middle between "classical strarcraft" and "full strategic zoom". And that middle doesn't look good to me.

Also I still do not agree with your reasoning on why you don't show icons. Okay giving orders to units from super up high might not be the best idea to use them in a good way. So people will zoom out to get an overview and zoom in to give commands. The whole point of strategic zoom never was to order your stuff around from a full map view. For large scale armies that sometimes makes sense, but in doubt a player would zoom in. The point of showing icons is to give players a good way to get an overview without forcing them to jump their eyes between main view and minimap all the time.

Can't wait to play the alpha to base my impressions on actually playing the game I guess.

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TAG_Utter

Join Date 03/2015

+18

The new stuff in the founder's vault really helps understand Colin.

And i really like what i saw , daam now im waiting for try ....

It seems that you guys really want to set a new level for RTS games, thankfully

I see a lot of professionalism, with great ideas and great quality. here.....

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Quoting TAG_Utter,

reply 46

The new stuff in the founder's vault really helps understand Colin.

I specifically wrote my post after reading through the pdf on the zoom.

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Ticktoc

Join Date 03/2015

+85

Quoting ColaColin,

reply 45

Can't wait to play the alpha to base my impressions on actually playing the game I guess.

This.

From early access to full release is about 6+ months (from the information released so far) so we can have a go and make suggestions from there. Looking forward to it.

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TAG_Utter

Join Date 03/2015

+18

Im with you on full strategic zoom, we both now very well , the options on field with massive fights , strategic zoom its a mark on game.

but I am confident they will find an effective way to deal with this situation.

I now wy the worries ,we have to be surrounded by easy options when have to take decisions quickly, and for this a fast and easy access ,to full strategic zoom is extremely necessary.

In GPG Forged aliance ranked matches in 1 year i have to buy 3 mouses because the constant zoom in and out ,it's a good picture of the importance on full strategic zoom

I think this team will get attention in this matter.

Im just a bit worry about Zoom the full strategic zoom ,is essential and extremely important for an optimal gameplay and good performance in the game.

Most of the time I prefer to see the game quality than just icons, takes out some fun of the game.

If they find an equally quick and easy way, will be a good news to all.

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