Merchantcross Bazar » Forum Post by Aviator64

if another faction queues the bazaar before you can then you will NOT get a chance to build the bazaar.

harpo

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There should be a pop-up informing the player when someone attempts to build a wonder.

Not knowing causes alot of uncertaintly for those that are aware of what to expect with the game.

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I am often abusing this: i put it on build list and then pushing it away with other buildings till my city gets enough powerful to build it in much fewer turns then i just releasing it to building.

This way i can stop AI from wonders building, buti dont have to waste 20 - 30 turns myself imediately, i can postpone it to more effective moment in future.

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Quoting petrasvu,

reply 3

I am often abusing this: i put it on build list and then pushing it away with other buildings till my city gets enough powerful to build it in much fewer turns then i just releasing it to building.

This way i can stop AI from wonders building, buti dont have to waste 20 - 30 turns myself imediately, i can postpone it to more effective moment in future.

i did this too but didn't know it would make the ai unable to start building the bazaar . this should definitely be considered a bug / exploit! in every other 4x / strategy game your only unable to bould a wonder when another faction has finished it first.

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Quoting petrasvu,

reply 3

I am often abusing this: i put it on build list and then pushing it away with other buildings till my city gets enough powerful to build it in much fewer turns then i just releasing it to building.

This way i can stop AI from wonders building, buti dont have to waste 20 - 30 turns myself imediately, i can postpone it to more effective moment in future.

This needs to be stopped somehow. Too strong of an exploit imo.

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I agree. It should not be off limits until it is actually built by someone.

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Yeah, don't understand the logic behind losing access because another sov is building the wonder. Going for Wonders should be a risk, and if you get beat out, you lose the time put in to the project. If I am lagging a bit in research with a production focused sov, I should be able to have a chance of pulling in a wonder by dropping Set in Stone on whichever city and trying to crank that building out before Captain Conclave builds his.

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Quoting Kias,

reply 7

Yeah, don't understand the logic behind losing access because another sov is building the wonder. Going for Wonders should be a risk, and if you get beat out, you lose the time put in to the project. If I am lagging a bit in research with a production focused sov, I should be able to have a chance of pulling in a wonder by dropping Set in Stone on whichever city and trying to crank that building out before Captain Conclave builds his.

The logic is there. The game may not be able to cancel one of the Wonders, so the effect would be multiple one-shot wonders built by multiple factions.

Personally, I think wonders should be done away with and all of the current ones should be readjusted into Factional Wonders. Yes, that means when you take over another factions city that has a wonder, it would be destroyed as it's associated with that faction (same as when you conquer Paradin city, you lose the scrying pool).

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parrottmath

Join Date 03/2008

+206

I don't mind that once you put it in the que to build, that it is removed from other players from building it. What I have issue with is that you may move it to another location in the que itself. If there were a way of stopping that action, then it would stop players from exploiting this fact, and prevent players from wasting production on a wonder they will never complete.

I've a solution to stop this exploit, and it will start a building race also. Maybe the devs will like it and implement it into the game itself I'll need about a day, wish there was more time in the day...

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parrottmath

Join Date 03/2008

+206

Okay, I couldn't wait for it and so I've produced an example of what I think should happen instead. The idea I have is that each faction may build a base to the wonder, a mini-wonder as it were, taking 90% of the production needed to make the world wonder. Each faction may build 1 of these base wonders. Then the first to upgrade it to the world wonder is the only one that can do so at only 10% of what's left over for production.

The compromise is as follows, each base does a small amount of what the actual wonder will produce. For example, the treasury vault produces 1% intrest on all your current gold... the base will only produce .1%

It is still a bonus, but not a very good bonus. Ereogs Tower is one where it is pretty good to build whether you upgrade or not... +1 mana per turn vs. +1 air shard. Obviously it is better to get the air shard (big time), but it is not that much better than the faction base one. I think this is a good comprimise and it brings in unique faction buildings as well that are not completely lost on the player.

What is left to do to finish these mods, is mild redesigns of lesser versions of the wonders and possibly new map icons. I hope the devs find this interesting enough to put in, if not I'll try to keep it up.

A legendary Hero's version:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/75549875/Fallen%20Enchantress/WondersBase/WondersBaseLHv0_5.zip

A Fallen Enchantress version:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/75549875/Fallen%20Enchantress/WondersBase/WonderBaseFEv0_5.zip

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I also find out that if you conquering other faction city which had tower of dominion (1 per faction), you can rebuild it regardless the fact you already have one of your own. So it turns you can have few of them if you have cities from other factions in which they were built.

Paroth i dont like your abstract wonder idea. Its tooo complicated. If i understad i could build some abstract wonder which could be turned into particular one after inventing tech for it ? In civ V if you and AI is about to finish world wander at the same turn then AI gets it off because its being considered that your turn goes last. Meanwhile you getting lost production as a gold equivalent. In earlier versions you could then redirect to other project if there were any to chose... I think it was not bad decission.

I also think that wonders could require at least 3d lvl corresponding to theme city. Like Ereog could be built only on 3d lvl conclave (and what is most valuable in it is fame per season, not air shard ), merchantcross only on 3d lvl Town. ironworks on 3d lvl fortress and so on.

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Quoting petrasvu,

reply 11

I also find out that if you conquering other faction city which had tower of dominion (1 per faction), you can rebuild it regardless the fact you already have one of your own. So it turns you can have few of them if you have cities from other factions in which they were built.

I have found this to occur with several "1 per faction" buildings. Not sure about some of the ones later in the tree, as even Challenging AI lags behind me ridiculously in research speed...

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parrottmath

Join Date 03/2008

+206

Quoting petrasvu,

reply 11

Paroth i dont like your abstract wonder idea. Its tooo complicated. If i understad i could build some abstract wonder which could be turned into particular one after inventing tech for it ? In civ V if you and AI is about to finish world wander at the same turn then AI gets it off because its being considered that your turn goes last. Meanwhile you getting lost production as a gold equivalent. In earlier versions you could then redirect to other project if there were any to chose... I think it was not bad decission.

You build a Faction wonder that can be upgraded to a Real wonder of the World (the tech to unlock the real wonder is the same as the faction wonder). But if the AI has started the Real Wonder you will not be able to stat your Real wonder. But you still get the Faction wonder which does in fact give you bonuses, just not fantastic bonuses. So there is not really a drawback in trying to build this faction wonder (although it might be a little expensive).

I consider these faction wonders to be copy cat wonders. Somebody built the Great Pyramids... but france wanted them too so they built them as well, they are just not The Great Pyramids.

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Quoting GFireflyE,

reply 8

The logic is there. The game may not be able to cancel one of the Wonders, so the effect would be multiple one-shot wonders built by multiple factions.

It cant be an excuse, can it ? Other games can manage it and LH cant ? I had basics of programing and i am sure it can be coded, whatever you like it to behave - you can do it. And it should not require that much of lines either: its such a narrow aspect of confinrming wonder being built after doing some logical checks.

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There was another thread about this where they said the system was working as intended. It's a little silly, but you just have to connect the wonder to the tech in your head instead of to completing the building to realize it's not really that different than other games. Basically they are tech based wonders rather than special construction projects.

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"cant cancel" is extremely stupid excuse, everything needed is:

access towns list

iterate:

access building querry

iterate:

if construction entry == your wonder then cancel this construction, popup notification

not checked what language game build on, but java allow this in 6 lines, not including implementations of related classes, cos this classes already present and no additional time required.

also proper design to provide additional nonwonder version of projects instead of canceling, with 1\3 or 1\2 effect (without fame and special effects) just to reward player for attempt.

if player missed vault wonder, he still can build vault, at same cost, but it wont provide interest\fame and wont be wonder, just bonus to gildar production.

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Gaunathor

Join Date 04/2006

+170

Quoting sharpxe,

reply 16

"cant cancel" is extremely stupid excuse

The Devs never said that this is the reason, as far as I know. Just that the way it worked in Civ wouldn't be fun in FE/LH. Like in the most recent statement made by Derek

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Another solution would be to add the following two qualifier to world wonders:

A world wonder can ONLY be selected for building IF the queue is in an empty state, thus the wonder is the only item in the queue.
When a world wonder is in the queue, no other item can be placed in the queue.

If this were intrroduced, then I would be more than fine with the current wonder system of 'he who starts to build gets to finish'. Until that happens though, queuing wonders is just one huge exploit waiting to happen and I'd rather it be a race to completion.

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Quoting GFireflyE,

reply 18

1. A world wonder can ONLY be selected for building IF the queue is in an empty state, thus the wonder is the only item in the queue.
2. When a world wonder is in the queue, no other item can be placed in the queue.

I can think of a problem with this. A human player could still keep the wonder in a state of limbo by putting it in queue every turn and then demolishing it and starting over. Though I suppose they would be wasting all that city's production potential every turn, so perhaps that kind of limitation would do the trick.

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Quoting animageous,

reply 19

Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 18
1. A world wonder can ONLY be selected for building IF the queue is in an empty state, thus the wonder is the only item in the queue.
2. When a world wonder is in the queue, no other item can be placed in the queue.

I can think of a problem with this. A human player could still keep the wonder in a state of limbo by putting it in queue every turn and then demolishing it and starting over. Though I suppose they would be wasting all that city's production potential every turn, so perhaps that kind of limitation would do the trick.

That is true, but while the player is doing this, that city is performing zero production.

...

you said that already. We're on the same page.

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not expect this game to stay permanently in SP state, in case of MP game such "feature" will be obvious and hurge bug\exploit.

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