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[.952] Horses are ridiculous

FrenziedFan

Join Date 04/2012

[.952] Horses are ridiculous

Why are there not more threads complaining about how disgustingly overpowered horses are?

A horse has:

+3 Initiative

+20 Weight capacity

+2 Moves

+25 Dodge vs ranged

+100 Prone avoidance

It costs 80 gildar and is in the second tier of the Warfare tech tree.

Movement is arguably the best property in game, +2 move essentially gives you +100% exp compared to a normal unit because you can fight twice as often (at least if you have the master scout ability). In reality though it is even more +exp because you will get to monster spawns faster and clear them out before your opponents even get there. Having 4 move also gives you unlimited kiting abilities vs 2-move monster in tactical battles and gives you the opportunity to attack 3 and 4-move monsters first.

Initiative +3 that doesnt take up an item slot is huge. Compare it, for example, to the Amulet of Haste (+2 init) which cost 90 gildar and is 3 steps into the magic tech tree.

Weight capacity +20 that doesnt take up an item slot is also really good.

Dodge and Prone avoidance are comparatively minor advantages.

I would easily pay 200g for a horse with only +1 move, its that good.

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So I just spawned a new map, horses in my starter city zone. Research is Epic, I am going to see how long it will take me to get horses. Will report back, on slowest possible time to horses when they are literally right there.

So 66 Turns on epic, with horses right there to get those horses plus the tech, I first researched civics, then the two techs needed for horses. By this time I had my second city, plus an outpost and the outpost also contained horses. So... would of been easy to get those horses even if I had not have them within my starting zone.

Overall, it sounds to me like- by turn 70-80 you should guaranteed have horses or wargs unless you can not find these resources, every turn after that you are at a disadvantage, loss of movement, allowing increased xp gain/more exploring and items.

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Quoting seanw3,

reply 24

So a horse eats the basic amount of food that a merchant makes per season?

I just made Mounted Warfare require Animal Hunsbandry and Drills. So it takes longer to get to and you have to use two tech trees. Then I raised the shop cost. Problem solved. They should really make me President.

Hate the crossing of tech trees.

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Quoting Bellack,

reply 27

Quoting seanw3,
reply 24
So a horse eats the basic amount of food that a merchant makes per season?

I just made Mounted Warfare require Animal Hunsbandry and Drills. So it takes longer to get to and you have to use two tech trees. Then I raised the shop cost. Problem solved. They should really make me President.

Hate the crossing of tech trees.

Love the crossing of tech trees.

(Don't worry though. I don't like other things they've done.)

As for a detailed look into each of their abilities:

Horses: +2 movement; +3 initiative; +20 weight capacity; +25 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone
Wargs: +1 movement; +6 initiative; +10 dodge; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone

IMO, this is how I think they should be:

Horses: +2 movement; +3 initiative; +20 weight capacity; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone
Wargs: +1 movement; +6 initiative; +3 attack; +15 dodge; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone

In addition, for kingdoms and empires, there should be a aligned mount:

Unicorn: +1 movement; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone; grants 'teleport 10 sqaures' ability in combat (new spell)
Nightmare: +1 movement; +3 attack; +10 weight capacity; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone; grants 'Improved Mantle of fire' to rider, dealing 12 pts of damage to targets that attack

Naturally, these all can be tweaked a little, but you get the general idea...

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Quoting GFireflyE,

reply 28

As for a detailed look into each of their abilities:

Horses: +2 movement; +3 initiative; +20 weight capacity; +25 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone
Wargs: +1 movement; +6 initiative; +10 dodge; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone
IMO, this is how I think they should be:

Horses: +2 movement; +3 initiative; +20 weight capacity; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone
Wargs: +1 movement; +6 initiative; +3 attack; +15 dodge; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone

I really enjoy the direction you are heading with mounts there GFireFlyE.

As for the second part...

Quoting GFireflyE,

reply 28

In addition, for kingdoms and empires, there should be a aligned mount:

Unicorn: +1 movement; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone; grants 'teleport 10 sqaures' ability in combat (new spell)
Nightmare: +1 movement; +3 attack; +10 weight capacity; +15 dodge vs ranged; +100 vs prone; grants 'Improved Mantle of fire' to rider, dealing 12 pts of damage to targets that attack

Nightmares sound awesome HOMM right there, unicorns might make me run the other direction though. Maybe something more manly... Like HOMM's recent Light Riders. Pure darkness vs pure light? ehhh? Corny, yes, in practice, awesome.

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I would easily pay 200g for a horse with only +1 move, its that good.

I would pay more, move is the most important ability a hero has by far. But that is what horses DO, they improve movement...

However, it is a HORSE... how hard is it to ride an animal? How expensive would one be? The fact it requires a ridiculous 80g (considering game economy prices) and a ludicrous 2nd tier warfare tech (which is much more expensively then second tier techs in other trees) in the first place are already serious nerfs.

I think a better solution then going nerf crazy is to make the AI pursue mounts far more aggressively. Buying one should require your empire have actual access to horses and the AI should aggressively pursue acquiring horses.

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My view on this is that mounts seem to be a bit early in the tech tree for what they give you. However, I like most of the boni from the current mounts, though I am a bit confused as to why horses and wargs get increased dodge versus ranged attacks - despite moving faster, both present a much larger target to the archer, and bows kind of stink already due to their low attack and large initiative penalty.

I do like the idea of having more advanced versions of the mounts later in the tech tree, but if they are 'improved' from the current mounts I would suggest it be in specialization - e.g., having warhorses that give additional defense, or scout horses with extra sight range. I also do not believe that it is a good idea to have significantly greater movement boni than are currently attached to mounts. I could perhaps see +3 moves on a scout horse versus the +2 moves on the normal horse, but nothing beyond that.

Also, to the person who said that cavalry moved no more quickly than the infantry, and not because they were merely moving more slowly for the infantry to keep up: infantry armies can march up to about 20 miles in a day, while horsemen can move about 25-30 miles in a day.

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