I'm getting sick of this. EWOM was not meant to be an End Game!

So if I want to spin it as a compliment to Stardock someone's inability to discuss something civilly and intelligently without taking it to a level of unnecessary immaturaty, I will do so.

I think calling fanboy behavior what it is when it happens is warranted, and people's ability to deal with that criticism is as much as sign of their maturity as just smiling and sipping tea whilst we discourse is.

Or can I start commenting on people's maturity level when they white wash criticisms and generally go out of their way to avoid say anything that can be construed as negative?

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Quoting Nenjin,

reply 176

I think calling fanboy behavior what it is when it happens is warranted, and people's ability to deal with that criticism is as much as sign of their maturity as just smiling and sipping tea whilst we discourse is.

Or can I start commenting on people's maturity level when they white wash criticisms and generally go out of their way to avoid say anything that can be construed as negative?

Insulting people, whether you think it is warranted or not, speaks volumes more about you than the person you are trying to insult, regardless of the response you get in return.

There is just no justification for bad behavior, particularly on a forum where people typically share a common goal: the improvement of the game. Fact is, you are calling them a "fanboy" to try to solicit a reaction, and to try to insult them. You are not trying to point out that they may be looking at X company through jaded glasses and their opinion may be distorted as a result.

It's all in the delivery and all how you actually want to be perceived. So yeah, if you "attack" someone, you can expect a defense or a counter-attack. But I would guess that you would get a better response stating "While I appreciate your viewpoint of Stardock, I..." rather than "You're just a fanboy." If you actually want to have a civil discussion that moves it along constructively, it's obvious which path is the best to choose. If your goal is to antagonize and attack, then that path is obvious as well.

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You are not trying to point out that they may be looking at X company through jaded glasses and their opinion may be distorted as a result.

Because this has proven really effective when dealing with the "Look, if you don't like it just ask for a refund. This place is for people who like the game" crowd. And the "You just don't get Elemental" crowd.

If people can insult those who have problems with the game in a roundabout way by questioning our right to be here, they'd better be prepared for the natural response to that. Being a "true" fan of the game is not some magic cloak which means you get to deride others with impunity for what they think, or "nicely" tell them to get lost. If you're going to dish it out, deal with the same.

Notice I haven't called you a fan boy yet?

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Quoting Nenjin,

reply 178

You are not trying to point out that they may be looking at X company through jaded glasses and their opinion may be distorted as a result.

Because this has proven really effective when dealing with the "Look, if you don't like it just ask for a refund. This place is for people who like the game" crowd. And the "You just don't get Elemental" crowd.

If people can insult those who have problems with the game in a roundabout way by questioning our right to be here, they'd better be prepared for the natural response to that.

That has hardly been the case in this forum unless the antagonists have shown no interest other than to engage in an all-out flame-fest. I most certainly have not seen incidents of your last two examples. I am sure that they may exist, but it is rare at best, and is most defintely not a stance that Stardock themselves takes. I have seen the "get a refund" from Brad himself a couple of times because the others involved had no interest in an actual discussion, but rather an argument.

So, you can take the extreme examples if you like, but I certainly see "fanboy" tossed around an exponential amount more than your examples.

This forum is FILLED with civil, respectful discussions on things that have gone wrong and ways to improve the game. You are most welcome to engage in those threads and express your displeasure and critiques. You are most welcome to do the same in the other threads that erupt into a flame war. The choice is ultimately yours. But it's also ultimately your responsibility for how you act, regardless of how others act. Again, it is how you want to be perceived.

My viewpoint/opinion on this applies EQUALLY to the other side of the coin.

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Notice I haven't called you a fan boy yet?

LOL. I have noticed. But I don't think I am one. I respect Stardock, but I have been fairly critical when it was warranted. I think we are having a respectful discussion. I also haven't seen you call anyone a fanboy in these forums. It may have happened, it may not have. I just think that we are just having some fun talking etiquette, nothing more.

It just gets frustrating to me when these discussions erupt into flame fests when we could be accomplishing so much more by dropping the attitudes and working together. Again, it applies to both ends of the spectrum. If we all truly want this game to succeed, we can help the process along greatly.

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

Quoting Jharii,

reply 179

That has hardly been the case in this forum unless the antagonists have shown no interest other than to engage in an all-out flame-fest. I most certainly have not seen incidents of your last two examples. I am sure that they may exist, but it is rare at best, and is most defintely not a stance that Stardock themselves takes. I have seen the "get a refund" from Brad himself a couple of times because the others involved had no interest in an actual discussion, but rather an argument.

I dunno, have you seen anything posted by rossanderson? That guy is pretty much the walking fanboy stereotype around here. Everything is perfect, any problems are made up (even ones confirmed to exist by the devs), and anybody not talking about how many awards the game will win is a troll if you listen to him. I mean in that one he takes a pretty good feedback thread and flat out tells the person to go away and play another game.

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Quoting Jharii,

reply 179

I most certainly have not seen incidents of your last two examples.

You haven't been looking then.

From my point of view what I am really looking for is Stardock to front up and admit that the gameplay needs rebalancing from scratch. My concern with the people who are strong fans of Stardock (one could use the label fanboy, but I see you object to that) is that their stance is often "it is fine, everything will be great in time".

I don't agree with that stance - I think if Stardock were on top of the balance issues then things wouldn't be NEARLY as bad as they are now. Elemental was obviously released too early but it was equally obviously released without giving much thought to balancing the various options and choices in the game to make it a real strategy game. If we don't kick up a fuss I see a good chance that Stardock will fix the engine bugs and merely patch over the worst of the balance problems, without really addressing the lack of a strong coherent gameplay balance plan.

So that is why I feel the need to keep making my voice heard, I don't want those who would rather just say "it is fine, don't worry Stardock" to drown us out.

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Quoting Tridus,

reply 181

Quoting Jharii, reply 179
That has hardly been the case in this forum unless the antagonists have shown no interest other than to engage in an all-out flame-fest. I most certainly have not seen incidents of your last two examples. I am sure that they may exist, but it is rare at best, and is most defintely not a stance that Stardock themselves takes. I have seen the "get a refund" from Brad himself a couple of times because the others involved had no interest in an actual discussion, but rather an argument.

I dunno, have you seen anything posted by rossanderson? That guy is pretty much the walking fanboy stereotype around here. Everything is perfect, any problems are made up (even ones confirmed to exist by the devs), and anybody not talking about how many awards the game will win is a troll if you listen to him. I mean in that one he takes a pretty good feedback thread and flat out tells the person to go away and play another game.

So he's a "It's not the game it's how you're holding it" person?

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Quoting Mistwraithe,

reply 182

From my point of view what I am really looking for is Stardock to front up and admit that the gameplay needs rebalancing from scratch. My concern with the people who are strong fans of Stardock (one could use the label fanboy, but I see you object to that) is that their stance is often "it is fine, everything will be great in time".

I don't agree with that stance - I think if Stardock were on top of the balance issues then things wouldn't be NEARLY as bad as they are now. Elemental was obviously released too early but it was equally obviously released without giving much thought to balancing the various options and choices in the game to make it a real strategy game. If we don't kick up a fuss I see a good chance that Stardock will fix the engine bugs and merely patch over the worst of the balance problems, without really addressing the lack of a strong coherent gameplay balance plan.

So that is why I feel the need to keep making my voice heard, I don't want those who would rather just say "it is fine, don't worry Stardock" to drown us out.

The thing is, Stardock has fronted up. Have you paid attention to the last few posts from Brad? (Not the one of the convo with his wife). He's been pretty damn clear that they botched some stuff, so have most of the people who have said "everything will be great in time." Not many have said "It's fine". That's adding to what people are saying and putting words in their mouth.

Saying "Things are going to get a lot better, Stardock is working hard at it and has dedicated a lot of time to the game" is not the same as "It's fine, really!" It's obviously not fine. We know it. You know it. Brad and co. know it. They've flat out said it on numerous occasions.

I mean, Brad's specifically asked reviewers not to wait to review 1.1 when most of the major fixes are coming out, so that Stardock gets properly flamed. If that's not admitting that they botched some stuff, I don't really know what is.

The thing about calling people Fanboys is it's often misused. Fanboys see no fault in things. People who like a game can still be aware of its faults, and can still like it just as much.

+1

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I think that, regardless if you disagree with someone opinion, labelling them as "fan boys" will only immediately take the argument away from the game and turn it into personal attacks. I think people should stick to the facts and use that in their debates and arguments, rather than stereotyping someone's opinion, giving it a label, and using that as a pretense to dismiss their allegations/concerns/complaints/comments.

It's all about being civil, regardless if you deem it necessary or not. Everything can be said, albeit be done appropriately.

It's plain to see from all the dev comments, including Frogboy (Brad) that AI, Balance & Magic are their main focus for the upcoming patches. So I don't think someones comment, which you may believe to be erroneous, will deviate the devs from the plan they have in mind.

So if people find the game to be flawless, let them enjoy it as such. If you have ideas for improvements and suggestions, go ahead and present them, and your opinions shouldn't be met with flames either.

As far as the OP's comment, although it can be agreed that an open modable game like Elemental will 'never stop evolving' but it's safe to say that broken traits and non functioning magical shards are not part of it's evolutionary process. It is something that you would expect to work out of the box. Although, as I mentioned in previous posts, time and money constraints often force games to be released with some... let's say undesired features.

Again, to give a bit of Kudos to the dev team, they seem very enthralled by their creation and seem to want to play it for themselves as well. This is probably the best scenario we can have, since they also want a challenging deep game. So we'll all come out winners in the end.

I for one completely support SD for continuing in making TBS games when the rest of the game industry simply turned it's back on it.

Now everyone gather around in a circle... it's group hug time!

Regards,

V.

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Quoting Mistwraithe,

reply 182

You haven't been looking then.

From my point of view what I am really looking for is Stardock to front up and admit that the gameplay needs rebalancing from scratch. My concern with the people who are strong fans of Stardock (one could use the label fanboy, but I see you object to that) is that their stance is often "it is fine, everything will be great in time".

I don't agree with that stance - I think if Stardock were on top of the balance issues then things wouldn't be NEARLY as bad as they are now. Elemental was obviously released too early but it was equally obviously released without giving much thought to balancing the various options and choices in the game to make it a real strategy game. If we don't kick up a fuss I see a good chance that Stardock will fix the engine bugs and merely patch over the worst of the balance problems, without really addressing the lack of a strong coherent gameplay balance plan.

So that is why I feel the need to keep making my voice heard, I don't want those who would rather just say "it is fine, don't worry Stardock" to drown us out.

I've been looking plenty. I just don't go out looking for them, like many people appear to do. I object to people tossing out insults. There is no need for it, from either side of the opinion. Everyone agreed not to abuse other forum members when they checked the box for the ToS. Brad posted about forum behavior.

All I am saying is that keeping it civil goes infinitely further than inane flame-wars, which go nowhere. And it's not like it is difficult to do so.

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I dunno, have you seen anything posted by rossanderson? That guy is pretty much the walking fanboy stereotype around here. Everything is perfect, any problems are made up (even ones confirmed to exist by the devs), and anybody not talking about how many awards the game will win is a troll if you listen to him. I mean in that one he takes a pretty good feedback thread and flat out tells the person to go away and play another game.

Report him, ignore him, then move on. Why feed any troll? You think that he is going to actually change his mind if you launch a counter-attack? Like I said multiple times now, both sides need to take it down a couple of notches. If he doesn't address his behavior and gets reported enough, he'll one day find that he can't access the forums any longer.

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Quoting Lord_Asmodeous,

reply 184

The thing is, Stardock has fronted up. Have you paid attention to the last few posts from Brad? (Not the one of the convo with his wife). He's been pretty damn clear that they botched some stuff, so have most of the people who have said "everything will be great in time." Not many have said "It's fine". That's adding to what people are saying and putting words in their mouth.

Saying "Things are going to get a lot better, Stardock is working hard at it and has dedicated a lot of time to the game" is not the same as "It's fine, really!" It's obviously not fine. We know it. You know it. Brad and co. know it. They've flat out said it on numerous occasions.

I mean, Brad's specifically asked reviewers not to wait to review 1.1 when most of the major fixes are coming out, so that Stardock gets properly flamed. If that's not admitting that they botched some stuff, I don't really know what is.

The thing about calling people Fanboys is it's often misused. Fanboys see no fault in things. People who like a game can still be aware of its faults, and can still like it just as much.

Thank you my lord. This is the perfect truth and said much better than I ever could have. for being a scholar and a gentleman.

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I mean, Brad's specifically asked reviewers not to wait to review 1.1 when most of the major fixes are coming out, so that Stardock gets properly flamed. If that's not admitting that they botched some stuff, I don't really know what is.

Yeah...

After he blamed street vendors for breaking the release date, when SD was allowing the game to anyone who preordered that minute.

After he blamed pirates for....something.

And after he said the game shouldn't get reviewed until it got a major patch.

One massive mea culpa doesn't excuse anything in my book. The proof is in the pudding. He admitted he flew off the handle (while not actually apologzing to reviewers, vendors or "pirates") and now is back to making promises.

Glad he owned up to his own behavior, and the state of the game. But he hasn't earned anything back from me, he's just stopped the deterioration of my opinion of him, for the moment. In six months if the game kicks ass, I'll start saying good things about Brad again. I'm starting to draw deep distinction between him, and his game and team. Maybe that's unwise, but I guess time will tell.

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To the op imho : no no and no.

Mods are one thing and expanding a game, a finished product i buy is another.Like galciv 2.

Honestly i bought the deluxe version but after reading up all this comments , i havent even run it , i will give startodck a month maybe 2, i got other games to play.I want to have as much fun as possble, be amazed by my first contact .

I aboslutely loved galciv 2 got all expansions , still palying agood game thats draging for the last week, so i aboslutely have big warm feelings towards stardock.+ Brad writes funny posts:).

But im pretty confused and saddened by what happned here (supposedly as i havent run my game as written above).

I mean i still remmber reading posts from Brad saying " we have all time we want, this game wont be pushed etc., stardock doesnt need that money that bad ".Why the hell did they do this then?Why not wait another couple of months?

Dont understnad but as written , will wait 1-2 months before runnign the game, and hope to be amazed then:)

Good luck Stardock.

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Quoting Nenjin,

reply 189

I mean, Brad's specifically asked reviewers not to wait to review 1.1 when most of the major fixes are coming out, so that Stardock gets properly flamed. If that's not admitting that they botched some stuff, I don't really know what is.

Yeah...

After he blamed street vendors for breaking the release date, when SD was allowing the game to anyone who preordered that minute.

Um, he did that because the date was broken....weird that you got that from what happened.

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Quoting Nenjin,

reply 189

After he blamed street vendors for breaking the release date, when SD was allowing the game to anyone who preordered that minute.

After he blamed pirates for....something.

And after he said the game shouldn't get reviewed until it got a major patch.

They allowed early downloads specifically because vendors broke the street date... again. SD considered it unfair that someone who took the effort to preorder would get it after someone who wondered into BestBuy so they released the online version 2 days earlier than they intended. And kudos to them for doing so.

Pirates took a lot of heat for some of Demigods multiplayer issues since they had many more people pounding their servers than legit copies of the game even existed. I haven't noticed any official posts referring to piracy in regards to Elemental, feel free to link one if I'm wrong.

He said reviews should be done on the 1.05 version which was the official release date version of Elemental. That's perfectly reasonable in my book, virtually all PC games (and a lot of console games) these days have a day 0 patch. It's 2010, it's the way of the times. You can not like it but it doesn't change the reality of the industry.

Now, not to say I think Elemental is all roses and sunshine. It's got some serious mechanical flaws, is buggy, and has an appalling lack of content. I can fault them for a lot. But their attitude and response to the results of those mistakes has so far been pretty much what I'd like to see.

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I love Gal Civ2, I love the huge maps, I will play a game that drags on for a week plus. Gal Civ2, from the time I first started playing (bought it within a month of release) has not crashed in the middle of play.

I want to love Elemental, I love the huge maps, I want to play a game to the end no matter how long it takes. Elemental in late game crashes just about every 10 turns or so. Elemental crashes if you switch to the desktop.

SD has disappointed many customers from the tone of the threads here. Sure they will fix this, but I will remember the trust they broke.

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Quoting Nenjin,

reply 189

And after he said the game shouldn't get reviewed until it got a major patch.

You're wrong, Brad said that reviewers should review the original release of the game BEFORE 1.1. Because if there's problems, Stardock should have to pay for them. It was quite honorable, and one of the reasons I love Stardock...

"7. To those reviewing the game: I would urge you to review the game prior to v1.1. I say this because v1.05 (the release day version) is the version of the game that was originally released and if that version of the game is considered flawed then my view is that Stardock should suffer the consequences for that."

And to Mutat, I've actually had more crashes and problems with Galciv 2--which I absolutely adore, BTW--than with Elemental.

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