PCGamer warning » Forum Post by LucidCon

I agree. The game is not inexpensive and should be more "polished" than it is. I get the distinct feeling that the last few days have been "oh S***" days for the devs trying to patch etc. I like Stardock, although less than in past years, and will continue to support them and hope the game turns into what it was billed to be but for now...it's not worth the purchase price. Apologies aside...this poor release and comments made by Brad could very well turn out to be a HUGE PR problem for Stardock.

Successfully updated karma reason!

It seems to me that if they are going to release a game at AAA price, they should release at AAA polish.

They are competing with the big studios on big studio terms; if so, they should offer products worthy of that league.

At the same time, I also totally understand the philosophy of fans here that say it's worth investing in what is essentially a beta product because they agree with the vision, support the company, and are confident it will reach the necessary standard in the long term.

The problem is, that's not how the game is presented, and a review has a duty to call out a buggy product. This is what that review did - in a very fair way. It bent over backwards to express confidence the game would be fixed.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The problem with complaining you were quoted out of context, is that its a comment you have made numerous times on these forums to people with valid criticism of the game (who have already bought the game anyway). Perhaps if you listened to criticism instead of shouting people down, then Elemental might be the better for it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting enigma691,

reply 196

Another game with a inflated review, just starcraft with a facelift, not such a bad thing but did they really need 12years to do it?

To be fair, I seem to recall Blizzard releasing a couple of other games between Starcraft 1 and 2. I think one was some sort of monthly pay multiplayer fantasy thing.

It's a little like asking...did Stardock really need 16 years to make a sequel to MoM?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Yalbik,

reply 205

Quoting enigma691,
reply 196

Another game with a inflated review, just starcraft with a facelift, not such a bad thing but did they really need 12years to do it?

To be fair, I seem to recall Blizzard releasing a couple of other games between Starcraft 1 and 2. I think one was some sort of monthly pay multiplayer fantasy thing.

It's a little like asking...did Stardock really need 16 years to make a sequel to MoM?

Well maybe if Stardock had actually made MoM, you might have actually had a relevant point.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Yalbik,

reply 205

Quoting enigma691, reply 196
Another game with a inflated review, just starcraft with a facelift, not such a bad thing but did they really need 12years to do it?

To be fair, I seem to recall Blizzard releasing a couple of other games between Starcraft 1 and 2. I think one was some sort of monthly pay multiplayer fantasy thing.

It's a little like asking...did Stardock really need 16 years to make a sequel to MoM?

I guess a better criticism is - after 12 years of new RTSs coming out, and all the accompanying innovation and advancement of the genre (and gaming in general), do they really think Starcraft with a facelift still measures up?

I'm not saying that SC2 is merely SC with a facelift (enigma's words, not mine). Just saying that after 12 years of change and innovation have passed, fans have a right to expect a lot more from a new game regardless of how much of those 12 years were actively spent developing it. So, "Did you really need 12 years to make that game?" could be interpreted to indicate: "In the past 12 years we've come to expect more from games like that."

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting surlybob,

reply 200

If it wasn't a bug, then why did Blizzard patch it? By your reasoning, they should have just said what you said. People lost brand new graphics cards to this "not-a-bug".

It doesn't have anything to do with reasoning. What I said is a fact. They very well could've said just that and they would've been 100% correct.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Filthgrinder,

reply 8

Man, this is starting to feel like Sacred 2 all over again.

Hay! I love Sacred 2 but I will admit... it crashed my PC HARD sometimes.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I didn't read through all 200+ replies to this thread, so forgive me if this has already been said: The following quote from PC Gamer is hard to dispute: "But putting junk like this in a box and charging money for it is not okay, however rapidly you try and patch it afterwards. It punishes you for being a fan, it punishes you for buying on day one, it punishes you for pre-ordering, and it punishes you for having faith that a great company like Stardock wouldn’t ask you to pay for a game until it’s fit to be played." (Except for the "junk" adjective. "Junk" has no potential, IMO, but Elemental obviously does.)

Valid comment. However, I still really like the game, and was pretty dissatisfied with the initial launch - I'm sticking with it, as are most of us.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I read the article and it comes across to me like the writer is someone who really wanted the game to be as great as it should have been but was let down, like a lot of us. Valid points are made including the recommendation to stay away for right now. I think pulling in the quotes from the forum posts detracted from the quality of the article...However, to dismiss it outright would be un-wise.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I support Stardock 200% and my support for PCGamer just went to 0%. The CEO of Stardock is why I pre-ordered. I own a decent amount of Stardock programs and have never been disappointed, they will get the problems fixed and I know they stand behind their products. More than I can say for PCGamers AD riddled magazines.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting cwg009,

reply 146

Some games with horrid releases go on to be massive successes, the most famous being WoW - their release was a real stinker,

WOW's only problem was the servers got overloaded. I was there at release, but chose a low pop "roleplaying" server, as well as playing at offpeak times, due to my time zone, so I personally had ZERO problems.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting greywar,

reply 187

It isn't germane to the meat of the review of this game which is spot on for large chunks of the customer base.

bah defend your publisher all you want, but pc gamer uk is known to be the "worst" review/preview etc etc in all publications. Maybe the people in the U.K, are actually blind to this fact, but not many others outside it. Funny thing is, the Pc Gamer US version is always pretty much right on with their stuff. They should just close the UK branch down or here is a thought , actually hire some compitant gamers who have actual schooling. Not just joe-shmo looking only for a paycheck and believing only negative comments on about every game that doesn't advertise with them sucks. Big suprise there. I am sorry to blow a whistle foul here, but when you bash a game like this and don't for others even worse (again refer to total war series) you definitly show a one sided review and again, big suprise (pun) this goes the same for anyone who doesn't advertise or give you incentive.

Sorry gents, but your mag sucks in the gaming world. Maybe in your world it's fine, but for many as myself, PC gamer US does the gaming world justice as much as game informer, two that easily top any infomation pc gamer uk will ever offer.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting surlybob,

reply 200

Quoting jochance, reply 199Sigh... I agree with the essence of your post that gaming reviews are a total farce, but I really wish people would stop spewing this particular line of ignorance. Failing to frame limit is not the most optimal thing to do... You certainly don't "need" that umph for a menu. Still, this equates to "using hardware at 100% of it's potential caused it to fail". That is not a software flaw no matter how you spin it. Any card that would have killed was on its death bed whether people realized it or not. Sure... it helped it find the light sooner than it would've otherwise. So would a marathon of just about any graphics intensive game.If it wasn't a bug, then why did Blizzard patch it? By your reasoning, they should have just said what you said. People lost brand new graphics cards to this "not-a-bug".

Because their customers were complaining. Much like a lot of Elemental's crash issues are actually confirmed ATI driver problems, but Stardock has to deal with them anyway (and half my job these days is working around odd Microsoft or Oracle bugs).

By definition using hardware at it's full capacity is not a bug. It's faulty hardware design if doing so causes it to fail. But people would rather Blizzard do something about it then go chase down a hardware manufacturer to fix their crap, since it's a lot easier for Blizzard to fix it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

i cant fathom how anyone can take up for stardok here. i paid $50 for a finished product not a glorified beta test, the game flat out doesnt work it needed a massive patch before you could even play the copy of the game as it was shipped, how pathetic is that? and after the patch it still crashes constantly. i see some people say other games are buggier, ok....they suck too. i didnt like the latest starcraft that much but i can appreciate the fact that blizzard would never ever ship a game like this to customers, so its nice that the ceo and everyone else posts on the boards and are "real gamers" but if they really cared about the game and not just making a quick buck they would have pushed the release date back and finished the game, instead of selling customers defective merchandise. big ups to pc gamer for having the stones to tell it like it is.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting chaintm,

reply 214

Quoting greywar, reply 187

It isn't germane to the meat of the review of this game which is spot on for large chunks of the customer base.

bah defend your publisher all you want, but pc gamer uk is known to be the "worst" review/preview etc etc in all publications. Maybe the people in the U.K, are actually blind to this fact, but not many others outside it. Funny thing is, the Pc Gamer US version is always pretty much right on with their stuff. They should just close the UK branch down or here is a thought , actually hire some compitant gamers who have actual schooling. Not just joe-shmo looking only for a paycheck and believing only negative comments on about every game that doesn't advertise with them sucks. Big suprise there. I am sorry to blow a whistle foul here, but when you bash a game like this and don't for others even worse (again refer to total war series) you definitly show a one sided review and again, big suprise (pun) this goes the same for anyone who doesn't advertise or give you incentive.

Sorry gents, but your mag sucks in the gaming world. Maybe in your world it's fine, but for many as myself, PC gamer US does the gaming world justice as much as game informer, two that easily top any infomation pc gamer uk will ever offer.

Here's an idea...

Post this meaningless drivel on the PCG UK site.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting chaintm,

reply 214

Quoting greywar, reply 187

It isn't germane to the meat of the review of this game which is spot on for large chunks of the customer base.

bah defend your publisher all you want, but pc gamer uk is known to be the "worst" review/preview etc etc in all publications. Maybe the people in the U.K, are actually blind to this fact, but not many others outside it. Funny thing is, the Pc Gamer US version is always pretty much right on with their stuff. They should just close the UK branch down or here is a thought , actually hire some compitant gamers who have actual schooling. Not just joe-shmo looking only for a paycheck and believing only negative comments on about every game that doesn't advertise with them sucks. Big suprise there.

Hay lets leave your anti british attitude out of this ok,this isnt about anything other than this game and atm alot of what the pc gamer guy said is just true period.I dont care if your a freakin martian if your telling the truth its the truth, and sometimes telling it how it is without sugar coated topping is tuff for some to take.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Demiansky,

reply 88

That was an unfair quote most definately, but everything else in the article is a valid complaint. As a matter of fact, the article was downright generous. Out of the box, Elemental is a game with severe problems and the columnist brings like to this. If a game has such brutal issues out of the box, it's perfectly moral to suggest that people stay away from it. But Mr. Francis in fact cut you some slack. He assured readers that they should return to Elemental later when it is in better shape. If he was obligated to give readers an honest opinion about Elemental out of the box, he did you a downright favor. You should be flattered, Brad. I can't tell you how many games I've seen get utterly panned with no "but's..." or assurances that consumers should "try it out later."

And why didn't he just pan the game outright? For the same reason I'm not panning it outright, either. Because we believe in both you and your company. We know you are a "philosopher gamer" in a market where such a thing simply doesn't exist and we know that you will fix it and make it a game worth playing for a decade. Very, very few reviewers would give an unprepared game they reviewed that kind of honor.

But for the sake of your own company's success in the future, you really need to just fess up, Brad. Not for us, but for yourself. If you just shrug off criticism of this fashion or discredit it on the ground of a quote or two taken out of context, you'll never recognize your own shortcomings and forever be repeating your mistakes. And Element's release condition as a functional game? Definately not a good thing. You need to out and say "Bummer, we made a mistake. It looks like we miscalculated on the matter of what we could get done in the time that we had." Sure, having to say such a thing can bruise one's self-image, but you'll be a better game designer and a better man for it.

Exactly my view.

Waiting until Feb to release would have been too late. Releasing in August was too early. Unfortunately SD boxed themselves into a situation where they had no 'Goldilocks just right' option (I think the game will be 'release-ready' in Nov-Dec).

Releasing in August has cost SD their reputation as a 'we won't release until it's ready because that's our philosophy and because we don't need the money that badly' company as has been claimed. Elemental's release has earned SD a 'we'll release sooner when it's not ready instead of later when it is if retail timing gives us only those 2 choices' reputation. This can be undone, if Demainsky's advice is taken.

The PCG article is a good barometer -- those who think it's too easy just might be 'haters'. Those who think it's too harsh just might be fanbois. Both haters and fanbois are equally unhelpful to a business that wants to succeed with the general public.

Successfully updated karma reason!

PC Gamer is "my publisher"? Man, I need to track down those royalty checks.

Awesome response dude. Totally dissected my complaints in a clear and logical manner. Couldn't have been better. Your case is solid!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Hmm...

One thing I don't understand... What the hell are you doing with your PC's to get all the CTDs and other technical problems?

I have 4 PCs/Laptops and no matter how much I try I am not possible to have the same buggy game you seem to have?!?

All PC's are custom builds...

PC1: Core2Duo 7300 OC 3,2GHz / 4GB RAM / 260GTX / Win Vista 32Bit

PC2: Phenom X6 1055 / 4GB RAM / 2x 460GTX / Win 7 64Bit

PC3: Core2Duo 8200 / 4GB RAM / 8800GT/ Win Vista 64Bit

Laptop LG P310 Tarsia: Core2Duo 9500 / 4GB Ram / 9600GT / Win 7 64Bit

So far I don't have any of the crashes I have seen in the beta. None of these PC's suffer from massive slowdowns or something.

Maybe only Intel i5/i7 users or ATI users suffer from the problems only...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting greywar,

reply 220

PC Gamer is "my publisher"? Man, I need to track down those royalty checks.

Awesome response dude. Totally dissected my complaints in a clear and logical manner. Couldn't have been better. Your case is solid!

Ok got it, every thread I read that has some vomit that you posted makes me want to throw up.

Successfully updated karma reason!

StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

Quoting mastroego,

reply 74

Quoting Frogboy, reply 52My biggest problem with the article is the quote he took out of context.

True, it was my biggest problem too, but it's the way it is, and one needs to be extra-careful.

Alas, rumors feed upon themselves, and have a way of growing out of proportion.

Anyway, some mistakes have been made, evidently. Simply by following the forums (I have not been involved in the BETA) I did perceive some amount of overconfidence. I mean, BETA testers testing only parts of the game is fine, but at some point they should have tested the whole package TOO, precisely to avoid the kind of panic reactions we're witnessing right now. If the developers were the only one knowing the new UI, for instance, well, they couldn't foretell its impact on new users who had no part in the designing process and who, while trying to grasp it, have a way of making assumptions a developer can't probably even imagine. So, don't be quick to dismiss criticism.

Yet I'm convinced people at Stardock are honest and serious and have the heart in the right place. I'm happy I've done my part in supporting by preordering the game and I look forward to support more by preordering the expansions too

If reviews are not to be going well now, well, let them change their mind with a mind blowing expansion

Yes, I agree to the overconfidence bit, I shared it. The close-to-release versions were just not what I was expecting. I think what Stardock needs to do now is to have a much more complete beta for the expansions - ie. seriously testing the close-to-release version until it is completely working as intended, is fun, professional and polished. I believe if they do a "kick-ass" expansion that improves the game in tons of ways in all sorts of areas, and is as polished as a diamond, they will regain a lot of trust. But if they don't - I think they won't get nearly as much pre-order interest and faith in the game at release. Basically, they have a lot of work to do, but if they do it right, they will have learned a huge and very important lesson - it is better to have the game be completely polished on release (ie. released when ready, or after extra time) then try to be over-optimistic with close races and get it wrong, compromising *all* your goodwill for all your games in future. When you think about it that way, an early, buggy release is just not worth the cost.

I agree with Demiansky and Nick-Danger. What do you think, Brad?

Best regards,
Steven.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I am sick and tired of spending my hard earned money on UNFINSHED games. I will NOT buy this game. We keep accepting unfinshed product as "ok" - because they all do it. Well it stops now for me. Good Luck fools

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting mastroego,

reply 74

...Simply by following the forums (I have not been involved in the BETA) I did perceive some amount of overconfidence. I mean, BETA testers testing only parts of the game is fine, but at some point they should have tested the whole package TOO, precisely to avoid the kind of panic reactions we're witnessing right now....

By the traditional definition of 'beta testing' Elemental had a [pre-release] alpha (where they solicited and implemented new features/etc. from the testers -- much to SD's credit and I'll repeat this Much To SD's Credit!) but SD skipped the [pre-release] beta (where a roughly complete game is tested for bugs, lack of clarity, imbalances, lack of polish, etc.) to make the Aug release date. We're seeing the traditional beta now [post-release] with 1.01 and 1.05 and a few more upcoming releases (can't end the beta until all the standard and basic promised features like MP -- even the 'no tactical battles' MP-lite that we'll have for a while).

There was internal beta testing (according to posts here), but not public.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Birdmon,

reply 224

I am sick and tired of spending my hard earned money on UNFINSHED games. I will NOT buy this game. We keep accepting unfinshed product as "ok" - because they all do it. Well it stops now for me. Good Luck fools

Thanks for sharing now get lost...if you don't have the game, don't plan on buying the game, you got nothing.

Successfully updated karma reason!