Premade notification » Forum Post by hasslehoff

Of course Pantheon doesn't match up players based on skill (seems like a tertiary consideration), so that does not really fix anything.

It does base it on skill depending on your perspective. The problem is that there's not enough players in queue so while a high ranked player may fight the highest ranked players available it doesn't mean they're going to be fighting good players. Regardless premade vs. premade would be better than the current system regardless of the skill of said premades.

I think that the whole pantheon theme is going to need to be ditched sooner or later. Even if they did get a team pantheon functioning premades still aren't going to play it when they're forced to pick either light or dark and their possible opponents are cut by more than half because of the light/dark distinction, though I can see the humor in forbidding Sedna+UB combos.

Also the periods between pantheon rounds aren't going to cut it. It'd be absurd for them to dump so many resources into building premade matchmaking and then having bi-weekly four day downtimes between pantheon mini-seasons.

Then let's not forget that they need to hide the names of your opponents at the connection screen so that people can't queue dodge and ramp up wait times, as that's only going to make the system less popular which means less players which means more wait time and less accurate matching, which will all add to it being less and less popular and so on.

So... I hate to sound all doom and gloom, but even though of course some of the things I would want aren't completely necessary, the project of arranged matchmaking seems too ambitious for post-release.

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Playing with randoms is awful, once you play in a premade you never want to go back, having people do stupid shit, take stupid builds, and generally screw you over through incompetence isn't even remotely fun.

Playing with *BAD* randoms is awful. Playing with good randoms is a completely different ball game. Still not as good as being premade with voice chat, but not even remotely the same.

No, if you lose as a premade, it feels like a genuine loss. If you lose in a pug, it feels like it was out of your hands and it was doomed from the start.

Well if that's the rationalization you use.....

If everyone is equally bad as you're claiming in pugs and if you continuously lose there's only one common factor....

I think that the whole pantheon theme is going to need to be ditched sooner or later.

I agree, but only because of the restricted hero choices. I don't think it was very well thought out in a game with such few heroes already to limit the team combinations.

Arranged team skirmish is what everyone really wants.

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Arranged team skirmish is what everyone really wants.

Yup. The should probably call it something more serious than skirmish though.

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Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

Actually that sounds like a great idea. Make games with "Premade only" in the title to lure in premades, then host disconnect loss them to ruin their precious records.

Genius I say!

You've taken the level of maturity here to a whole new level. I'll be sure to avoid games with "premade only" in the title in the future. Seriously, you don't even play Demigod, why are you here?

Zamzoph, when you're done putting words in my mouth, perhaps we can have a legitimate conversation.

Some of our most challenging games yet have not been against premades. And we've played some very strong premades.

Playing against each other is static and simply a matter of choosing the correct counter to your friend's strongest build. At least we occasionally get a chance to see something new in PUGs.

You also don't seem to comprehend the concept of comaraderie.

I'm not apologizing that we don't suck. If we did you wouldn't be complaining.

And yeah, we don't like to lose, especially for reasons outside of our control.

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Yesssss double post.

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You've taken the level of maturity here to a whole new level. I'll be sure to avoid games with "premade only" in the title in the future. Seriously, you don't even play Demigod, why are you here?

Sarcasm not your strong suit huh.

I'm still here because I'm hoping they fix Demigod such that it's worth playing. If they really want to know what to do to make Demigod awesome have one of them go check out the HoN beta and its interface and features. Being able to reconnect after disconnecting? The holy grail of RTS features. Imagine if Demigod had that and you could recover from the innumerable crashing and exceptions....sigh....

But until they fix matchmaking and stats....

Playing against each other is static and simply a matter of choosing the correct counter to your friend's strongest build. At least we occasionally get a chance to see something new in PUGs.

Not if you chose random heroes. Maybe....try it?

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Not if you chose random heroes. Maybe....try it?

The winner would often be determined the moment the game started.

Also, being able to reconnect to a game after dropping would have been amazing.

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Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

reply 6

Not if you chose random heroes. Maybe....try it?

Ok, and if it came up Sedna Sedna vs LE Oak what would you do? That's pretty much an autolose if erebus/oak are smart enough to go minions to exploit sedna's god awful lack of AoE. I don't know about you, but dice-rolls like that aren't my thing.

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The winner would often be determined the moment the game started.

*shake head*

Ok, and if it came up Sedna Sedna vs LE Oak what would you do?

Outplay them? Or since you probably think the game's already over just quit since it's in 3 minutes. Clearly that's the only choice.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

The winner would often be determined the moment the game started.

The winner is not decided the moment you start.... not to mince words too much, but sometimes is a better word here. I can see why some would not want to do random dgs, but I hope you still believe that some skill is involved in the game, right? There is the releam of possibility of out playing someone, remember?

quick edit - I'm not looking to argue this point much, I'm just saying if you say often, then you are indicating that the vast majority of the time you will get screwed due to bad matchups, which I doubt would be the case. But, I'm not arguing that you guys should use random dgs...

I've also noticed an interesting trend this afternoon. The only guaranted way to fight against a low powered premade is to put "not a premade" in your title. For some reason, they flock thinking perhaps their odds will be better. And I did have 1 guy lie about being a premade today, but oh well... bad apples here and there. Crazy. Not a big deal, but I'm sure I'd be frustrated like others if that was what I bumped into on a regular basis.

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Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

reply 9

Outplay them? Or since you probably think the game's already over just quit since it's in 3 minutes. Clearly that's the only choice.

Do you know a damn thing about this game? Seriously.

Also: This is assuming even skill levels. Yes, you can beat terrible people despite this.

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Quoting pacov,

The winner is not decided the moment you start

Until this game is balanced, yes, it often is.

Quoting pacov,

I hope you still believe that some skill is involved in the game, right? There is the releam of possibility of out playing someone, remember?

Not really. Demigod does not have a huge learning curve. You have eight Demigods, of which only two or three are likely to suit your personality. From there, you have a handful of items that are good choices and a few skill customizations.

The inability to get any better is exacerbated by the artificial limitations to skill imposed by the buggy selection hotkeys and automatic behaviors that override your commands, not to mention the collision detection and pathing bugs.

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Do you know a damn thing about this game? Seriously.

Do you know a damn thing about adapting? Playing outside your premade prepicked comfort zone? That's where the fun is. Cling to your "highest level of play" bs and pick your tried and true combos. I'd have more fun than you trying something new, *even if I lose*

Until this game is balanced, yes, it often is.

So why are you playing an unbalanced game? Doesn't sound very fun. Oh wait, smashing noobs, that's right.

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Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

Do you know a damn thing about adapting?

We've clearly demonstrated a much greater proclivity for it than you. You have your scrub mentality, we have our competitive one. You try to rationalize getting smashed over and over, we try to rationalize why it's so important to win. The two are never going to see eye to eye.

Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

So why are you playing an unbalanced game? Doesn't sound very fun. Oh wait, smashing noobs, that's right.

All of the great successes in my life can be directly attributed to the number of noobs I've smashed. There simply is no greater achievement possible. It feels SO AWESOME. I can walk into a bar now brimming with confidence and pick up any chick I want because of my 183 game win streak. Seriously man I've had more threesomes due to Demigod than any other thing I've done in my life. One mention of my 197-2 record to the ladies and it's time to change the panties.

Also, did you know I can't take three steps out my front door without being mobbed by the paparazzi? Do you know what's it like to be suffocated by 20,000+ adoring fans? You should see my personal security budget. It's absolutely astronomical.

YOU KNOW YOU WANT THIS POWER, FAME AND GLORY BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BECAUSE I AM A VASTLY SUPERIOR HUMAN BEING.

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YOU KNOW YOU WANT THIS POWER, FAME AND GLORY BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BECAUSE I AM A VASTLY SUPERIOR HUMAN BEING.

You too? I thought It was only me.

But seriously, can we NOT turn this thread into the one I replied to a month about begging stardock not to have an all random mode option. Yes we get it already, you like random things. You like random partners, on random maps, with random heros. You think that makes you good with no direct data to back it up. You think you're right and want everyone to believe you. Everyone that doesn't believe you only enjoys smashing noobs and makes up stories about friendship, and Comradery with the true intention of just making people like you miserable. You can't prove you're right, and we really dont' care if you random everygame of your life. We have better things to do thant o make you miserable.

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Quoting Zamzoph,

reply 22

Defeats the point, I refuse to play with randoms in any game 99% of the time.
99% of the time? Even if both sides are on par with eachother or, better yet, clearly to the advantage of your side? Now what's your reasoning for that?

Because we derive greater satisfaction working with each other instead of against. The game rewards good teamwork, we've simply taken it to the next level.
It sounds like you might as well be saying that you get greater satisfaction from having as much of an advantage over your opponent as possible, even before the match starts, to guarantee your wins. Actually rewarding teamwork would be like a group of players who, after a long and challenging match, beat a statistically superior opposition because they were able to work together effectively, especially if this was a inpromptu alliance of random players. In your case, it's just overkill to not only be statistically superior, but also have better communications, preset strategies, and a vast amount of time to get acquainted with your allies, unlike your outmatched opposition.

I'm curious as to what this "next level" consists of, though...

It consists of joining someones lobbies repeatedly with the intention to crash them, usually because you got kicked from global chat for being abusive towards them, and for having the gall to whine about THEM after being so abusive, apparently.

I hope one day I can reach this next level, and step up to the high level of play that Zamzoph has set for us all!

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

Quoting Shadow,

reply 12

Not really. Demigod does not have a huge learning curve. You have eight Demigods, of which only two or three are likely to suit your personality. From there, you have a handful of items that are good choices and a few skill customizations.

The inability to get any better is exacerbated by the artificial limitations to skill imposed by the buggy selection hotkeys and automatic behaviors that override your commands, not to mention the collision detection and pathing bugs.

To clarify - your stance is its not possible to get any better than you are due to coding issues? *makes brain hurt*

On topic - I'm really curious to see what the devs do with premades. The only thing that will come of Shadow, et all, is they'll keep doing what they've been doing, enjoy themselves, but they will always have people in the community busting their chops. I don't think there is any seeing eye to eye or that there has to be.

Hoping a stat reset is announced (because they fixed the host disconnect bug, etc) so that this premade shite dies down for a min.

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Quoting Shadow,

Zamzoph, when you're done putting words in my mouth, perhaps we can have a legitimate conversation.

Quoting Shadow,

All of the great successes in my life can be directly attributed to the number of noobs I've smashed. There simply is no greater achievement possible. It feels SO AWESOME. I can walk into a bar now brimming with confidence and pick up any chick I want because of my 183 game win streak. Seriously man I've had more threesomes due to Demigod than other thing I've done in my life. One mention of my 197-2 record to the ladies and it's time to change the panties.

Also, did you know I can't take three steps out my front door without being mobbed by the paparazzi? Do you know what's it like to be suffocated by 20,000+ adoring fans? You should see my personal security budget. It's absolutely astronomical.

YOU KNOW YOU WANT THIS POWER, FAME AND GLORY BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BECAUSE I AM A VASTLY SUPERIOR HUMAN BEING.

Quoting ItchyDustbin,

It consists of joining someones lobbies repeatedly with the intention to crash them, usually because you got kicked from global chat for being abusive towards them, and for having the gall to whine about THEM after being so abusive, apparently.

I hope one day I can reach this next level, and step up to the high level of play that Zamzoph has set for us all!

So apparently, "legitimate conversation" to Team Shadow means devolving to long-winded, eye-rolling sarcasm.

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Quoting pacov,

To clarify - your stance is its not possible to get any better than you are due to coding issues? *makes brain hurt*

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Verbatim.

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Quoting Zamzoph,

reply 18

So apparently, "legitimate conversation" to Team Shadow means devolving to long-winded, eye-rolling sarcasm.

What sarcasm? You showed us this next level of play last night.

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Stardock should take a clue here and go ahead and disable changing user names, killing 2 birds with one stone by creating accountability for both rage quitting and premades.

One account, one record, case closed. Then if people want to rage quit and pub stomp they can be properly avoided and/or blacklisted.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

"Team shadow" is group of people who enjoy playing together. The only way to beat them would be to a) force them into uneven matchups convince them to split up and play PUGs like some of us enjoy c)convince them to compete with each other d) get them to accept a 3v3 premade and beat them. I'm working on d. Suggest you do the same. I don't think they'll deny anyone who challenges them 3v3 (but they will 2v2 or 1v1 (it appears). What they do is their preference. They paid for the game, they enjoy playing a particular way. They are not cheating, just stacking the odds in their favor. Nothing is wrong with that. Its actually the most intelligent way to ensure you have good stats.

To be honest, I personally don't care about the whole premade vs pug argument. I've seen it go both ways, as most of us have... you indicate its a pro game and I guy with 1 win joins. You indicate its a premade game and I guy with 1 win joins... etc, etc. What bugs me about premades only relates to stats. People can be incredibly highly ranked by only fighting in a specific type of game with people they are used to. If stats weren't involved in this, I wouldn't care. At all. And yes, I know stats are currenlty borked. Unfortunately, I don' t know a good solution to this other than what I described above. If there was a good way to rank players like shadow based on their style of play and me based on my style of play, then that would be ideal. For instance, Shadow, et al, would be HIGHLY ranked in 3v3 or 4v4 (5v5 too?) play. They be nonexistent in 2v2 or 1v1. Luckygrin would prob be the current 1v1 champ (that I'm aware of). However, if you look at top players right now - you see luckygrin as #1 greatest dude for ladder. The whole ladder... and he doesn't even compete in the big games (1v1 or 2v2). The ladder just doesn't paint a clear picture. Is there a better way of showing this or representing skill?

edit: also... apparently b ) =

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If there was a good way to rank players like shadow based on their style of play and me based on my style of play, then that would be ideal.

From what I can tell the current stat system is fine for ranking players. Higher ranked players should give more experience when you beat them and less experience when you lose to them. Lower ranked players should give next to no experience, and that seems to be working...

The problem is that no high ranked players actually play each other with any consistency so the paltry gains you get off of poor players are more significant than makes sense.

At its core it's a matching issue and it's an issue with rating custom games at all. If you pick the map, pick your opponents, pick the game settings, and can see your opponent's strategy (aka their DGs) before the game starts, you shouldn't be getting points for it.

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The premade issue..

There is no premade issue. There is a skill issue tho. I get the same results if i go play on the same side as some of the more regular players i've played with, than what i get when i play with my friend.

You get X amount of decent players on one side and you can say that the game is unfair. Premades are merely the scapegoat of this phenomenon as they usually are decent and frequent players and play on the same team, so the odds that they get newbies on their side is greatly reduced or outright eliminated.

What we need is a strict ladder logic that encourages players to play against opponents of similar skill or higher skill. We could also use a good matchmaking system that can for example find a good 3v3 for me and my friend just as well as a game for me only. That is: matching opponents skillwise.

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We've clearly demonstrated a much greater proclivity for it than you.

You've demonstrated you actively avoid it.

You try to rationalize getting smashed over and over, we try to rationalize why it's so important to win.

I'm not the one using "I don't want to lose games where it's not my fault" to rationalize refusing to play as non-premade. And why exactly is winning so important to win? I gotta hear this.

[quote]Yes we get it already, you like random things. You like random partners, on random maps, with random heros.

I like some random things. Heroes? Yes. Maps? No. Partners? I will play with random people only because everyone I know that I used to play with stopped playing Demigod (when they implemented "random" and it was completely busted that was the final straw...). Matchmaking has still not caught up, so currently I'm just not playing until it does.

You think that makes you good with no direct data to back it up.

Where did this come from? I've never claimed to be good.

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