I would agree. If you're going skill based, you need to end the game as soon as you can. If you drag it out too long, other DGs will stack armor/regen/whatever and it becomes very difficult to make skill damage stick. A good skill build outlevels the competition and then ends the game before things get out of hand.

Sounds like a good analysis but if you charge a UB thinking that he must be out of mana, you are in big trouble if he has bought a mana potion and can spit you twice more.

As an UB player, I can tell you that mana is rarely a problem when favors are allowed. (Although I prefer games with no favor items allowed, and that's how I've been playing for days now.) With Blade of Serpent, you can either spit, then activate it and combined with other melee damage, have more mana than before spit (unless you had full mana, of course); not to mention Post Mortem AND plague - it's endless mana pool for UB.

Without favor items, I still find myself way too often on the better side of mana pool than on the poorer. Depending on your gameplay and items required, having two mana helms might be a huge disadvantage for not being able to take some armor/hp/speed items, but if you want to play a harrasing role - it doesn't matter that much. If you are playing a killer, you are not that much dependant on mana to need two helms late-game, when you need slots. 

Those are just my observations regarding UB mana pool, because I played about 50 games with it. (My rough estimate.) And when played wisely, mana was never a problem.

Play some more then. This is simply not true.

Now, how to counter it is another question.

Well, the easiest answer is to take Erebus. He is UB's bane, if played properly. So is Regulus. Of course, so is every other DG played in a proper way, but those two have obvious advantages against UB.

Symbol of Purity is another obvious choice, but requires you to charge UB after initial spit (then use Symbol) to take the advantage of it, since it has much longer cooldown than the spit. It's a great item for countering Beast if you can handle him in direct 1 on 1 duel.

Using mana drain items, combined with Shield (a good Oak will always judge correctly and cast shield early-mid game before the initial spit) will surely make the Beast go away, if not kill it. The lane is yours then, which is another point.

It's hard to kill the Beast. But it's not so hard to make it go away.

Which is still your win.

Good luck all.

You make some excellent points here. I especially agree that UB has quite the advantage against Rook early game because of his Spit and speed, honestly one reason I like playing UB so much is because of his "Anti-Rook" capabilities. And yet, obviously, this makes life pretty lousy for the Rook player, so it should be addressed somehow. Personally I agree that there should probably be some sort of change to Venom Spit, as you're correct that it currently gives a strong ranged capability to a character who isn't "supposed" to have one. Out of all the balance suggestions I've seen for the skill, I'd probably say that a reduced range would be the most fair, as higher mana would be really unkind (or easily worked around, depending) and less damage would make the skill pale in comparison to spot-damage spells of other DGs. However, a small but nontrivial decrease in range would probably make the UB a lot more balanced in comparison to other DGs.

Personally I find it pretty amusing that the Beast is a pretty good anti-Regulus DG, given that Reggie ought to do well against a character who is (mostly) intended to be most dangerous at close range. The problem, obviously, is that Reg wants to run off and kite, and so to does UB, but when they meet the beast just has to get a Spit off and run, and Reg is left taking the damage without being able to return any. The thing is, the range on Spit is pretty decent to allow the enemy to get some shots in if they see you coming, but all too often I can just sneak up on (even!) Regulus, spit-and-run, and take no damage in return. If we're going with the earlier idea that fighting the UB should be a "race to 0 hp", which currently is often the case in melee combat, it would be in line with the Beast's role to have a shorter-ranged Spit as that would leave him vulnerable to ranged harassment or melee retaliation in exchange for his attack, rather than it just being "free damage".

Woah. I guess I read that tooltip wrong, I thought it was just manadrain for your melee damage, but it's for *all damage* that you deal while the effect is on!? That's totally amazing... especially given how cheap the item is. If that's really the case, I can't see myself ever taking another favor item, as the main weakness of the UB is lack of mana, and being able to counter that so easily would be a decisive advantage. I'm surprised more people don't use that item, if it's really that good. Have to try it out in a few games! Might be enough to actually make me start taking Plague again, which I haven't for a while.

Also, does anybody have any opinions on the fact that UB has the game's highest innate Armor value? That just seems like a really confusing decision. After all, Oak is made of armor, and Rook is made of stone. I'm not saying that the Beast should be knocked down with a feather, but it's rather odd that the guy with his organs hangin' out is the one who's most resistant to damage. Maybe someone can find a link to the table showing the data.

Personally, I think once the balance changes start going through a Beast with a little less range on his Spit and a little less Armor would be just about perfect to fill his intended role, with other DGs being brought up to that level of awesomeness. Your thoughts?

I totally disagree with calling UB squishy. He beats almost all demigods in 1v1 combat with a pure Ooze build; relying on spit means you need mana items, so you have much less health than you could, plus you don't have the nice AoE damage and attack speed reduction of Ooze.

I find it extremely rare to have a '1v1' combat online. It almost never happens. Ooze is awesome for these situations but good players don't generally fight 1v1 in a team game. Most of the time it's all about dealing a little ranged damage and staying out of range unless you have help from a teammate.

The only mana item you need to use Spit is the Plenor Battlecrown. Once you have that you're all set for the game. And you can get AoE damage from Post Mortem and Plague.

Whether it's 1 on 1, 2 on 2, or any other combo, Ooze is good when you actually get into a protracted melee fight with your opponent. That's not very common though. It usually happens against Sedna, Erebus, Oak, or another Unclean Beast. And it only happens when your opponent has the odds stacked in his favor or vice versa. In many cases Ooze doesnt really help all that much because either you or your opponent just gets ganked within a few seconds.

It's just rare that decent players sit there and scrap it out. If the opposing team is mostly made up of Rook, Torchbearer, Regulus, or Queen of Thorns you are not well advised to slot Ooze. It's not going to help you that much because those players are not going to sit around trading punched with you unless they are idiots. Against an Oak and Sedna team, Ooze might actually pay off. It depends on the situation, but Ooze is less commonly useful than Spit is overall.

Its interesting that you don't seem to understand how the Plenor Battlecrown works either. I play UB very well and I rarely need anything more than that item. Spit isn't the only attack you have. It's just a useful harrassment tool. Most damage is done with melee autoattacks and Spit is just to finish off a fleeing enemy or to wear someone down at the start of combat. Anyone who tries to 'always Spit' as you suggested still has a lot to learn about how to play Unclean Beast.

Gotta disagree there too.

Ooze is far more efficient especially late game than Spit.

UB is not a glass cannon in Ooze build, he is a highly potent, if not the best melee fighter in the game.

Thats why you don't trade punches with them, and use techniques like teleporting into them or behind them (actually even using the map like walking around to block off their escape!!!). They won't be able to push you out of lanes, they will harass you, but they won't be able to simply breeze in and put a lot of pressure on you.

Tower Rook is about the only DG out of those you listed who an Ooze UB is going to have real trouble against. I haven't met a TB, Reg or QoT, where I have had to worry about them too much in Ooze build. Oak is far more scary as his spirits can do real damage, even with the AOE damage from Ooze.

Wow, I just really really hope people follow OP's advice and come charging at me. That would be real nice, spitting on them then turning on Ooze.

My Spit/hybrid beat has never lost to an Ooze beast. I just beat one 2 days ago. I outlevelled him easily and every combat was a piece of cake. He couldnt take me on at 100% health at any time. When we went to melee it was at my discretion and I never lost.

There's more than one way to build every character in this game. If you really think the game is as clear cut as 'Ooze beats Spit builds FTW!' you're doing yourself a disservice.

Thank god someone else pointed this out.  I very rarely find a beast under 7k HP towards the end of the game. 

Does anyone have any advice for what to do if you have a partner feeding a UB?  It seems like once UB gets into the level 10+ territory with good gear it is very difficult to stop him in any meaningful way.

I tend to play as Sedna, and even stacking HP gear myself usually is not an effective solution, since the crits inevitably spike so high with UBs very fast attacks.

Congratulations, you have anecdotal evidence for Spit being better. Since you haven't played Ooze UB, stop talking out of your ass. I've played as Spit UB, Ooze UB, and hybrid UB. I'm not saying Spit is bad. I'm just saying that you are wrong when you state that UB is squishy, that spit handily beats Ooze, and that Ooze is bad in general.

Also, how do you figure you get to control when you fight and when you don't? UB is fast. If you spit on UB and he is already running at you, he will get into range to hit you. He will fight you. Ooze will beat you, at least in the late-game. Early game, Spit UB has a slight advantage.

Ranged harrassment like Regulus? Dude, play the game a bit more. UB will never be harrassed by a regulus. He might... but regulus is so squishy he can be killed in the early game even if he retreats into his towers. Even furthermore, he does almost no damage to me; when you have over 5k HP by level 5 (with the health flag) there is really no reason to be concerned with a few autoattacks; just activate wand of speed, charge in, and kill/push out of the lane. It's not hard; if somebody is in range for a ranged attack, I am in range to charge in with Wand of Speed and force them to battle it out, because with a 10% slow from the first hit, they are stuck in combat.

You aren't worried about killing other demigods. Ok, fine. I don't go out of my way looking for ganks either. But honestly, that doesn't change the fact your build gets four spits, total, and you have to go back to the health crystal or use potions. You can't even harrass towers, immobile objects with horrible healing, with four spits. You could never harrass an actual demigod with that, and as soon as you run out of mana you are useless.

Also, you still haven't addressed how hypocritical you have been; you rely on melee damage for your build, yet say that Ooze, which does more melee damage and has more health and takes less damage, is worse. Honestly, I can understand trying to make your build sound better... but you really need to figure out when to stop exaggerating and look at things objectively.

Spit > Ooze early game.

Spit > Ooze against towers.

Ooze > Spit late game.

Ooze > Spit against minions, creeps, and in 2v2s.

Depending on the build, Ooze is faster than Spit (sometimes spit builds forgo having Diseased Claw or Inner Beast in order to get Post Mortem, horrible skill that it is.)

However you have been saying "UB is Squishy, spit is better, I can have just as much HP as an Ooze UB and it doesn't matter that I have almost no mana regeneration and can only use spit a few times and rely on AA damage, which Ooze does better, Spit is still so much better because I said so!" Just accept the fact that Ooze is better than Spit in a lot of situations, and that Spit is better than Ooze in a lot of situations.