I'm not getting dragged into another "water baptism" conversation argument with you Lula.  Been there done that.   Your scriptures you put up are NOT showing that we are saved by water baptism.   You have been taught that man has do do something to be saved when I showed you plainly...it's all God.....more than once. 

Notice what you are doing.....you're going to other scriptures, not dealing with what I said at all.  You have to bring up other scripture to show that what you've been taught is the correct interpretation.  The problem is that's what the name of the game is all about.  All the groups do this.    They take a scripture or two and make a theology around it but have to dismiss other scriptures which will shed more light...those get ignored. 

Just take what you put down for instance.......

nowwhere does it say that water baptism saves here.  So why are you putting this here?  It says to "make disciples." It doesn't say to make converts.  You can't be a disciple until you've been converted. God does the converting...we don't.    Notice it says "to observe."  Observe what?  These new converts are to learn what it takes to be a Christian by following more seasoned (like the Apostles) Christians.   All you're seeing is the "baptism" part and running with it. 

Baptism is the very first act of obedience AFTER you have accepted the truth. The first thing we, as older Christians are to do after we baptise them in the name of God is to disciple these baby (not physical age but spiritual) Christians.  Sorry to say that's not really being done very well.  The focus is to get them in, dunk them and leave them and go find more converts so we can get the numbers up.  More numbers....more money.....bigger church.  In the meantime you have messed up churches all over the place because no one is really being discipled correctly if at all. 

ANother scripture you use and is an absolute Catholic favorite (you're not the only one) : 

it's the calling on his name, not the water baptism that saves.  We aren't washing away our sins by mere water.  It's the Holy Spirit that washes away our sins. 

"There is no other name under heaven in which a man can be saved."  (also in Acts.) 

it's HIS name NOT the water baptism that saves us. It's all about Spiritual Baptism, not physical water baptism that saves.  You're looking at the flesh, not the spirit here.  That's why Jesus said in John 3 it has to come from above.   

nothing again....to do with water baptism. Where does it say here that water saves us?    It's the Spiritual baptism here....compare this with what I gave you in Ezekiel.  It's God who is doing the washing, sanctification and the justification....not us.  We are incapable.  We cannot give birth to ourselves...it's impossible as Nic said. 

and you shouldn't even have put this one up.  This would support what I'm saying...it really discounts what you are trying to say.  Read this again.  "not by deeds done by us" (water baptism).  You messed up giving out this one Lula.    Notice who's dong the washing and regeneration and go back and compare to that one in Acts I say the Catholics like the best. 

The mix up you have is that you don't understand that it's God who does the cleaning and regeneration.  You think we have to pour water ourselves to do the job usually by another like a Priest. 

The water baptism, while important, as a witness, is not where our salvation comes from.  The water baptism is an outward show of what has happened to us inward.  When Jesus was baptised, it was as an example to us.  He didn't need to get baptised to be saved.  It marked the beginning of his earthly ministry....just like for us.  When we decide to follow Christ, the first step is water baptism.  The spirit has already regenerated us and then we, in our first act of obedience are to be baptized.

But we've been over this over and over and over Lula.  There's not much more to be said.  I would recommend you take every single verse and compare ALL of them.  You're zooming in on just what you want to see because that's what you've been taught by the RCC to believe.  I've been there.  I know all these scriptures and how they're teaching them.  It doesn't do justice to the scripture as a whole. 

and it doesn't serve that we keep going over these same things.  Obviously we're not going to convince each other.  I can't go back to where you are now.   I feel like I've been set free from all that "religion" and that's what Nic was trying to figure out for himself.... which way to go......the religious way he'd been taught by men or the new way this very learned Teacher was bringing him to.  He was at a crossroad and I believe at the end he followed Christ by coming out "in the day" and putting his reputation on the line by lining himself up with the Messiah. 

For pete's sake, that's exactly what I've been saying ......Baptism IS all God.  Just as God through the Holy Spirit is Principal Author of Scripture, Christ is the Author and Source of the Sacrament of Baptism, not man, not the Catholic Church.

Christ is the source of the 7 sacraments, Baptism is but one. It is HIS provision; HIS means, His gift of supernatural (sanctifying) grace  by which we become spiritually re-born...."of water and the Holy Spirit".  Baptism communicates God's grace to the soul and by grace, I mean that internal, supernatural help God communicates to us from the divine merit of Christ  which He left to be administered through His sacramental system by the "stewards of the mysteries of God". 1Cor. 4:1. The Sacraments-- Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, or Confession, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders and Matrimony--are the channels through which His supernatural (sanctifying) grace, the fruit of the Redemption flows into souls.

Sanctifying Grace is a gift through which God's love is freely bestowed upon us. Sanctifying Grace elevates and strenghens the soul. It makes us pleasing to God, the Giver of the Grace.     

Certainily there is a chance for error, why not? Just as well, there is a chance for error on your part; there is an equal probability that we are both wrong about our beliefs in that area.

As for where my interpretation - it comes from my mind, logic, education, etc. All the skills and abilities that I have - granted, they're not as refined nor sharpened in my brief two and two tenths of a decade of living, but they're decent.

I have a question for you, one that my mother asked me years back. The only difference is that I will reword it to be adapted for you, she asked me "Why do you continuously seek to deny the existance of God?" So I will ask you:

Why do you continuously seek to prove the existance of God? What is it that drives you to believe in something higher and superior? Why is it impossible,  seemingly, for you to not just be able to accept that things could be different?

~Alderic

Alderic, 

If you don't mind, even though your question was directed to KFC, I'd like to respond.

It boils down to one word: Happiness. Natural and positive happiness in this life so that I might have supernatural happiness in eternal life in Heaven.

The attainment of happiness depends upon the degree to which we attune our spirit to the Spirit of God.

Becasue it is in God alone where real happiness abides.

That there is no God, etc.

All of that can happen without religion - people can change, people can grow, etc. An example would be myself, for a number of years I was - well - not doing well. I was eye deepd in things like drugs, etc. Still, I made the decision to change my ways and I did. God didn't step out and show himself to me, I took the initiative and changed. 

Respectfully, you know the answer according to your eyes, not mine. Personally, i've been mulling around an answer, and I would have to say: (With all due respect)

Because a person does not necessarily need God, and can manage on their own. I've managed to get through multiple dark times in my life on my own strength and will. Why would I put faith in something I cannot see, something I cannot touch, nor hear, nor verify. I can see the ground, I can test gravity, and I can touch things.Why should I be a part of a distinct group - that has a history so bloody and violent, coupled with a superior morality complex and ignorance.

I make mistakes, but I learn my lessons and move on - always maturing, always learning. I'm pretty darn good on my own, now why would I want to put my life in the hands of some *thing*?

No problem.

I can be happy all on my own.

Why do I need him? Why rely on Him, when I can rely on myself.

1. God's own word mentions taking lives - whether or not it is because of the specific person taking a life doesn't matter much - it is still taking a life.

Leviticus 24:17 - " 'If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death."

Essentially, an eye for an eye. So far as my abilities tell me, logic dictates that if one person kills another, then that person - according to the bible - has to die. So, the person that carries out the punishment and kills the person, wouldn't they then have to die? It makes no mention there of any sort of justification the punishment/killing.

2. The thing is: Christianity is supposibly the way of Jesus. Well, history has shown us that those who (at least) call themselves christian are way off. They've murdered, blackmailed, etc. in the name of your faith. Now, are they following the word of your God? As far as I know, they are - or at least they say they are. I doubt that is His way.

Essentially, through my years I've developed my own set of morals and ethics. It's safe to say that I've done it without any sort of Christian influence. Oddly enough, I've been drawn toward Buddhism most of all. (Not that i've been buddhist per se, but it's philosophy and such make more sense, without the whole magic being figure) I'm an honest, upright, compassionate guy - among other things, and I do it without any faith, or God(s). Because being that way just makes sense to me.

Granted, I don't conclusively know; however, if it was him, then he chose to not show himself. All evidence points to it being my efforts.Of course, I may be highly skeptical and stubborn - but I'm not closed minded. I'm willing to listen and let things go on. Maybe, just maybe I will find God, or maybe I won't.

Perhaps

~Alderic

yes sometimes.  Depends.  There's a time to keep quiet and a time to speak.  I think most of the time we speak too often when we should just be quiet but we, as Christians also are told to go out and "tell."  It's really a matter of letting the spirit lead us.  Too often though we are impatient and go off half cocked and not allowing the Spirit to prepare ahead of us.

But you have to admit, it's kind of hard to be quiet about such things on JU.  I mean if I didn't speak out, how would you know? 

Like I said there is a time....silence is between you and God for your own benefit. Meditation is important in the life of a Christian.   Being silent when we should be telling others about Christ is another matter entirely. 

"Go out and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." 

So that's why you can't come to faith in God?  Because he set down this law in the OT?  Is this a bad law?  First of all  You can't just pull stuff out of context and make a belief out of it....or you can but you're only fooling yourself.  This in Lev is protecting life.  The whole idea is that man was made in God's image and life is sacred to God.  So God initiated capitol punishment to protect life.  This is to protect life, not take life away.  This is a last resort and only with at least two witnesses.  Why would this be bad?  How about you go to the NT and read this:

"Love your enemies and bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you."  Matt 5:44

Didn't Christ practice what he preached?  He's our example.  While we're not perfect like him, he's where the bar is set.  Pretty high I know, but it's only because of him we can do this..   Remember the big story about the Amish and how they forgave those who came into their village and killed their people?  The people of the world watched in wonder when these Amish people followed Christ even to the letter.  There are thousands of other examples I can give you. They let go and let God and when we learn to do that, great things happen in our lives.  God does a much better job with the whole vengeance thing than we do because he's a God of justice, not us. 

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."  John 10:13

again.....that was the OT....what did Christ say in the NT?.....remember Chrisitans are now under grace thru Christ....he said: 

"You have heard that it had been said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you that you resist not evil but whosoever shall hit you on your right cheek turn to him the other also."  Matt 5:38

basic principle in context here is this.....be willing to suffer the loss for another (v38-42) The law of retaliation thru the OT did provide for the ending of feuds but Christ showed another way to do the same. 

These you listed don't sound one bit like Jesus so I very much doubt they were Christians.  You will know a tree by it's fruit.  Would you call an apple tree a pear tree?  Or an orange tree a plum tree?  So why are you putting labels here on non-Christians and calling them Christians?  At least you said "call themselves" Christians.  That's good.  I think you need to reason this out. 

....there are countless stories of real genuine Christians who gave their lives for others sacrificing all just as Christ did.  Most of the time just to give out the gospel against all persecution.  Many, many stories just during the Holocaust itself.  Have you ever read the classic "Foxes Book of Martrys?"  Probably not.   But that's where you'll find the true stories of genuine Christians.  Being a Christian means sacrificing oneself.....not another for the glory of God. 

ok, this makes sense.  Now I get you.  Have talked with many Buddhists over the years.  Good luck with that.  While it may make you feel better it's not going to give you the peace of mind and the promises about the eternal like Christ can. 

But you do have faith.  It's just not in creator God.  You have replaced it with faith in yourself.  Don't kid yourself.  In the end tho, do you think faith in yourself has what it takes to stand the test of time? 

It gives me peace of mind, and it's stood many tests so far.

Because some of those people were Pope's and other high ranking officials. They're expected to follow the word, but apparently they were following something else.

I just have a hard time with things that say one thing in one area, and then say another in a different area. That's why i have trouble with politicians, lol.To me, it's a matter of integrity and honesty.

See above.

I agree with the bolded area. That can apply to non-christian/religious folks as well.

~Alderic

Your concept of Catholics is so silly!

Protestants object to Purgatory, Limbo, etc. because they are not specifically mentioned in Scripture. But you are not consistent as the word "immersion"  or "immerse" is not found in any part of the Bible either!

Again, Baptism is all about God. It's about what Christ said and what He wants us to do. It's about following all His commands to the "T", for He said, "If you love Me follow My commands". It' not following the ones we pick and choose to (and yes, plenty of liberal Catholics do that..but woe to them!)

Our Lord's command was very clear....to go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe (that is to obey) all that I have commanded you..." No mention was made as far as I know of whether the whole or part of the person was to be sprinkled, dipped or dunked.

"Follow Me" He said....and He instituted 7 Sacraments, the first being Baptism. His Blessed Virgin Mother Mary also gave us good advice...She said, "Do what He tells you." Protestantism came along and threw out the Seven Sacraments....If you don't believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation, then you are not trusting, following or believing in Christ...but someone else.

Catholics baptize infants because Christ told us to do so....

That infants were baptized by the Apostles is not specifically stated in Scripture as you rightly claim, however, it is clearly implied.

First, Christ commanded that we baptize all nations, which includes infants who are a valuable part of nations. Agree?

Remember, that Baptism makes infants adopted children of God, as circumcision made infants of the Old Dispensation children of the Covenant. If infants were brought into favor of God in the Old, why not in the New?  

Infants have souls, which are stained by Original Sin, the sin of Adam, which is washed away by the Sacrament of Baptism. Without this spiritual re-birth infants would be deprived of the supernatural grace necessary for the admission into the kingdom of Heaven as St.John says in 3:5.

Infant baptism has been practiced throughout the Christian ages...we have plenty of writings from the Didache on. The Apostles baptized whole families, Lydia, the seller of purple, Acts. 16:15; Crispus, 18:8 and Stephanus 1Cor. 1:16 are some BIblical recorded instances.

In Acts. 16:33, St.Paul is said to have baptized the "whole house" of his jailer. We are certainly within reason to believe that there were infants in those families and in that "house". And since St.Paul performed these Baptisms years before the Acts of the Apostles was even written it is evident that infant baptism was the will of GOd. And, the Catholic Church in her practice of baptizing infants ever follows the will of God. Christ's express command is to "Suffer the little children, and forbid them NOT to come to Me." St.Matt. 19:14.

It's plain that little children can come to Christ through Baptism and that the parents of these little ones have the duty to bring them to Chruch for Baptism in order that they may come to Christ. The irony of what the Baptist sect does by refusing to baptize infants and should they die, would deprive them of the joy of seeing God face to face, the Beatific Vision.

As a matter of history, the denial of infant Baptism was condemned by the Church as a heresy of the Pelagians more than 12 centuries before the Protestant sects separated themselves from Christ's Church.    

Why would any Christian parent deny infants and little children the blessed privilege of supernatural re-birth through Baptism?

Better think again on this....In saying this, Are you with Christ or against Him? Christ came to save mankind and He has the right to dictate the conditions of salvation. In St.John 3:5 and St.Mark 16:16 He distinctly commanded Baptism as a condition of salvation, and no arguments of you, or any one else, are of any avail against the authority of Christ.

Timing...think about timing and perfect order of things in salvation history. No one gets into Heaven with the stain of Original Sin on his soul. Baptism was instituted by Christ for the destruction of Original Sin.

Again, through an infusion of supernatural grace Baptism washes the stain of Original Sin from the soul. And the gates of Heaven were closed until Christ's Ascension into Heaven. Supernatural grace comes from the Holy Spirit as a result of Christ's Cross.  

What was going on in St.John 3:22-36 as far as Baptism is concerned? Wasn't there a discussion that arose over St.John the Baptist's Baptism, when Christ's public ministry was just getting underway? This is before Christian Baptism was ordained. Jesus didn't baptize becasue He wanted the disciples to practice exhorting people to conversion.  The baptismal rite referred to here was not yet the Christian Baptism---which only began after the Resurrection of Christ.

Then in St.John 4:2, Jesus delegated the baptizing to His disciples becasue He had work to do...later in this chapter He meets the Samarian woman at the well...and speaks to her of "living water". Doesn't that make you think...you who are so bugged about water-Baptism? She was converted.

We've got to take the entire section into context to understand why he said this. St.Paul was taking the Corinthians to task over divisions within the Chruch over certain teachers...he is there to stress unity in the Chruch. Again remember there is one faith, one baptism, one body, one Lord...etc. St.Paul tells them there is no excuse for divisions that unity is not dependent upon which teacher you had or who baptized you. Then he ties it all together...unity is based on Christ whom they all preach...Christ is the one who was crucified for everyone and His name is the name they were baptized in. It's through Baptism, the door of Christian life that Christians become part of the one body of Christ.

Lula, I'll let you have the last word on baptism.  I told you I didn't want to (again) go into this subject with you. 

I strongly disagree from a biblical viewpoint what you are saying,  but I've said all that I can say.  I'm not going to belabor the point or argue this with you. 

ok.  Let me ask you.  Have you ever read the whole bible?  Just sat down and read the whole thing?  Even from a historical  POV it's pretty interesting.  I don't mean snippits here and there but just sat down and read the whole book? 

well that's good although I didn't think you did.  But again, it depends on what sources you're using.  There are enough stories on both sides of the fence.  Read the others for a change, the stories of genuine Christians who put their lives at risk at the expense of others. 

there's valley and mountaintop experiences no matter who you put your trust in.  We, Christians, have ups and downs as well.  The difference is when we go thru those down times, we find ourselves drawing even closer to Christ as we turn to him to help us thru.  During those dark times is when we feel his presence the most.  We have someone to cry out to and he ALWAYS comes thru for us.  Always.  It's pretty cool to hear all the stories that surround these times from believers. 

If you can, get that "Foxes Book of Martyrs" classic book.  It's pretty interesting. There's no way a mere human can rely on themselves during these hard times without losing it. 

so far.  Maybe that's why they say there are no atheists in foxholes?  Sounds like you haven't been in any foxholes yet. 

I don't know why I didn't suggest the link before, but it might help explain where I stand. My "belief," so to speak - would be along the lines of this:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_theism_ideal.htm

Though not that the values take the place of a God, there's the absence of a higher power as well as worship.