DRM problem with used copy » Forum Post by epiclulz

ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

kruppe: your post adds notihng. Why bother?

Sometims the best thing to do is to

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kruppe: your post adds notihng. Why bother?

it did, i asked for an ignore function

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Good lucking proving it.

kruppe: your post adds notihng. Why bother?

Sometims the best thing to do is to

It's obvious that your posts don't add anything either.

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It's obvious that your posts don't add anything either.

now your not even trying anymore, but i geuss even the best run out of steam at some point.

well played you had most of us for a fairly long time

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It's quite sad that this has gone on to a 10th page of replies.

Again and again, you claim the game is DRM crippled, yet no DRM exists. You can install and play the game. You don't need any patch beyond what comes on the original disc itsself to be able to play it. Sure, patches fix bugs, etc, but you don't need them to play the game.

Maybe next time you should do research into software prior to acquiring it. Or just stop being cheap and buy a new copy instead of trying to save a couple bucks. Buy a new copy and support the developer instead of just supporting the store by buying a used copy.

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now your not even trying anymore

Ok, then what else were you expecting me to say?

Again and again, you claim the game is DRM crippled, yet no DRM exists.

Maybe next time you should do research into software prior to acquiring it.

If you research the game the only thing you'll find out is that the game has no DRM, which is a lie.

Or just stop being cheap and buy a new copy instead of trying to save a couple bucks. Buy a new copy and support the developer instead of just supporting the store by buying a used copy.

Yeah, and fuck anyone who buys a used car/toaster/guitar. They should support the manufacturer!

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You say you cannot play the game at all, which is a lie. You CAN play it even when you buy it used and even patch it up to 1.05. You say that researching the game prior would not notify you of cd keys being tied to accounts, yet in less than 30 seconds I found several websites stating this by using a search engine for researching the issue.

As for anyone who buys a used car, etc, at least in that case you get an actual physical object. Have you ever needed a cd key to use a toaster? A game is data stored on something either in electrical form or pits/grooves on a disc. You can't actually hold the data in your hand, just what it is stored on.

It's not like cd keys or cd keys being tied to accounts are anything new. Ignorance is not an excuse as all you had to do was return the game when you found out this and buy a copy that would work. Sitting here and blaming the developer and crying about this crap is not the answer. Plenty of people have given you great constructive criticism in this thread, yet you just choose to ignore it all and keep bitching and sounding like a crybaby.

So what if it doesn't state it on the box. Does it say on the side of a car that it needs gas to run? If you read the manual for the car, then you find out it does, as does the manual for the game stating the cd key is tied to a user account.

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The problem with most game companies (Including Stardock / Ironclad ) is that they feel they're being " robbed " when something is sold on second hand - not so!

Look at it this way:

Stardock sell 100 copies of Sins.
They are now maintaing 100 copies of Sins (with patches).

Someone sells their copy of Sins to someone else.
Arguments on the forum are saying "why should Ironclad support your game for free - you didnt buy it from them" - not so! Ironclad are still only maintaing 100 copies of the game, not 101.

This whole making an account thing, and tying it to your serial key is pretty much out of order... you dont see a house manfacturer coming in and ripping the roof off because you sold it to someone else. ( You cant even read the damn EULA until youve opened the game - and nobody takes them back after that anyway)

Its a great big scam really, no matter how much Stardock like to go on about how awesome and nice they are. (Could easily let you "release the key" from your account - how hard would that be ? not very)

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You say you cannot play the game at all, which is a lie.

Uuh... what? I'm fully aware of the fact that it can be played. But there's no point in doing so since it can't be patched.

You say that researching the game prior would not notify you of cd keys being tied to accounts, yet in less than 30 seconds I found several websites stating this by using a search engine for researching the issue.

I searched for "sins of a solar empire" + drm and all I got was a bunch of morons claiming that there's no DRM whatsoever.

It's not like cd keys or cd keys being tied to accounts are anything new.

And it's not like this shit hasn't been covered several times already. Read the thread.

Sitting here and blaming the developer and crying about this crap is not the answer. Plenty of people have given you great constructive criticism in this thread, yet you just choose to ignore it all and keep bitching and sounding like a crybaby.

The devs and publishers are at fault, so obviously blaming them is the correct course of action.

So what if it doesn't state it on the box. Does it say on the side of a car that it needs gas to run? If you read the manual for the car, then you find out it does, as does the manual for the game stating the cd key is tied to a user account.

Everyone knows cars run on gas. There is no way of knowing that game X uses DRM method Y (especially when people are claiming that it has no DRM at all).

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"why should Ironclad support your game for free - you didnt buy it from them" - not so!

At what point did the second-hand buyer's money make it to SD/IC? The original statement is absolutely correct.

Ironclad are still only maintaing 100 copies of the game, not 101.

Currently, yes. The original purchaser, regardless of whether or not he/she has the disc, is still getting full support.

The OP is suggesting that everyone who happens to get a hold of that same disc should get full support as well. If that were the case, then there would a lot more than 100 copies of the program being serviced.

you dont see a house manfacturer coming in and ripping the roof off because you sold it to someone else.

You generally don't see anyone continuing to live in a house after the new buyers have moved in, either. The original owners of most software have very little preventing them from continuing to use the program.

Software isn't a house. It isn't a car. What you're buying isn't even a physical product (unless a few cents worth of pressed plastic and a jewel case are what you're really in the market for). For a number of reasons, analogies to physical products don't fly here.

Could easily let you "release the key" from your account - how hard would that be ? not very

The person who sells his copy of the game can easily pass that account information on to the buyer. You're right. It's not hard at all but it's not SD/IC's responsibility to make sure that it happens.

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Quoting dawatticus,

reply 8

Bla bla bla

Look at it this way:
Stardock sell 100 copies of Sins.
They are now maintaing 100 copies of Sins (with patches).
Bla bla bla

Ironclad are still only maintaing 100 copies of the game, not 101.

In this particular case, they are maintaining 100 copies of sins, with one dude screaming bloody murder because he bought one of those 100, but without actually buying one of those 100. No, he just bought the DVD the game is on.

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If you had taken the time to compare the two, you might have noticed that I did say it in the second post, which I consider to be the original post since the first one is meaningless at this stage. It's not that hard to figure out.

Ah, OK, so now all of us must bow down to your definition of "original post", "first post" and "second post"..

Where was I changing the topic?

When you went from "original/first post" to "second post". Oh wait, you changed definitions. OK. I'll remember to change which one is my "first post" and declare all my previous posts "meaningless" when discussing with you the next time I need to change topics. I though the "Create Post" button at the top of this page was used for this purpose, but hey, guess I was wrong.

(unable to remember prices, shop name, manual included or not, etc)

Uh... where did I say I can't remember the store's name and whether or not a manual was included? I simply refused to waste time answering your arbitrary questions.

Which you have posted repeatedly that the questions are arbitrary. In fact, you spent more time posting "it is an arbitrary question" than you would have spent had you answered the question in the first place. Oh wait, you have poor memory in this instance and you forgot.

Maybe I just used my powers of common sense to determine that maybe Stardock isn't going to contact a tiny game store on the other side of the planet to provide them with information they already have about a product they are no longer selling second hand.

Wow, your common sense includes Prof. X's ability to read minds too is it?

I really have to wonder if you have some kind of mental disorder. To say that you're blowing things out of proportion in a melodramatic fashion would be an understatement of the highest order.

Regardless, the question I posed in post #223 still stands.

By the way, the reason why you're trying to argue or prove that I torrented the game is because you have no real counter-arguments against my position or the facts that I've presented here. You're getting desperate.

Excuse me, how could I be getting desperate now, when in fact I have been asking that question for many, many posts back. It is you who have not answered it. Hence, now, the more you avoid the question, the more likely it is that you pirated the game.

Have I at some point asserted that I'm going to do something about this?

OK, so that I understand you fully, can I take it you are doing absolutely nothing about this?

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Ah, OK, so now all of us must bow down to your definition of "original post", "first post" and "second post"..

I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to decide what I consider to be the original post and what I don't consider to be the original post. You are again trying to dictate the terms of the discussion.

When you went from "original/first post" to "second post". Oh wait, you changed definitions. OK.

Huh? I still don't understand where I was changing the topic.

Which you have posted repeatedly that the questions are arbitrary. In fact, you spent more time posting "it is an arbitrary question" than you would have spent had you answered the question in the first place. Oh wait, you have poor memory in this instance and you forgot.

I didn't forget, I just don't see why I should answer your stupid questions.

Wow, your common sense includes Prof. X's ability to read minds too is it?

Maybe you missed the part where I talked about common sense.

Regardless, the question I posed in post #223 still stands.

Not really.

Excuse me, how could I be getting desperate now, when in fact I have been asking that question for many, many posts back. It is you who have not answered it. Hence, now, the more you avoid the question, the more likely it is that you pirated the game.

Accusing me of piracy reeks of despair and stupidity.

OK, so that I understand you fully, can I take it you are doing absolutely nothing about this?

Again, where did I say I'm going to take action?

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Quoting Zubaz,

reply 1

kruppe: your post adds notihng. Why bother?

Sometims the best thing to do is to

I've met a fair share of trolls over many years and forums, some a moderately capable of holding a reasonable argument. Personally, I think it is a bit of a mental excercise to debate against someone who 1. always wants to have the last word, and 2. is always right. Kind of like fighting the AI on unfair - except you really can never win

Of course, if you have good valid points, eventually trolls will end up taking positions that are absolute nonsense, repeat the same phrases that have no substance at all and even go back on their own previous statements/positions. Finally, it reaches the point where their responses are really quite ridiculous - this is because they are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing and their (once) valid (?) position has been lost completely.So yes, sometimes, it is fun to feed the troll and see where they go.

I must give kudos to SD for allow such a thread to go as long as it did. I think you guys are all students of Voltaire - "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it." I think in some other forums, the thread would have been locked several pages ago.

It's been fun, I bid so long to this thread, and thanks for all the fish!

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

I must give kudos to SD for allow such a thread to go as long as it did. I think you guys are all students of Voltaire - "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it." I think in some other forums, the thread would have been locked several pages ago.

Unless a thread starts to violate termsof service we usually just let them go. If there is no harm to other members, why not?

The other thing is tha even though a troll is just a troll the conversation around the troll *can* be interesting.

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Unless a thread starts to violate termsof service we usually just let them go. If there is no harm to other members, why not?

Yeah, well I saw in some other tech forums the mods maybe were a little quick oln the draw and quickly clamped down on F-words and were a little biased themselves.. One flame war I read reached the point where people were accusing the mod of being a troll! So, in comparison, I do think you guys do a very good job moderating the forums here..

The other thing is tha even though a troll is just a troll the conversation around the troll *can* be interesting.

My thoughts exactly, I think I rather enjoyed it myself too.. Jolly good fun, old chap!

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Personally, I think it is a bit of a mental excercise to debate against someone who 1. always wants to have the last word, and 2. is always right.

By demanding the other person to stop posting, are you not in fact trying to have the last word? By demanding the other person to stop arguing against you, are you not in fact trying to force your way into being right?

Of course, if you have good valid points, eventually trolls will end up taking positions that are absolute nonsense, repeat the same phrases that have no substance at all and even go back on their own previous statements/positions. Finally, it reaches the point where their responses are really quite ridiculous - this is because they are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing and their (once) valid (?) position has been lost completely.So yes, sometimes, it is fun to feed the troll and see where they go.

You know someone has utterly lost when their only remaining line of defense is accusing the opposition of trolling (without any evidence, naturally) and demanding them to concede defeat and stop arguing.

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Quoting epiclulz,

reply 9

Everyone knows cars run on gas. There is no way of knowing that game X uses DRM method Y (especially when people are claiming that it has no DRM at all).

Now, you seem to know car like you know computer game...

Some car use gazoline, other use diesel... some use electricity (Tesla electric powered roadster )... some use compressed air ( Tata/MDI OneCat Air Car )... some use hydrogen ( FCHV from Toyota )... some use LPG... some use 2 cycle benzine ( gazoline + a few percent of oil ), etc...

If you don't know the car, you can make mistake... if you make mistake, the producent is not responsible, you are responsible... same for the game... why do you complain here after having buy the game... what is not more easy to ask a question here BEFORE you buy the game ? A lot of people act first and think after... but the normal way is to think first and acting after... God have give us a brain, it is mean to be used...

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Some car use gazoline, other use diesel... some use electricity (Tesla electric powered roadster )... some use compressed air ( Tata/MDI OneCat Air Car )... some use hydrogen ( FCHV from Toyota )... some use LPG... some use 2 cycle benzine ( gazoline + a few percent of oil ), etc...

Most cars run on gas, and since I was speaking colloquially diesel falls under the definition of gas as well. I really don't care anyway because this is all completely irrelevant. I was replying to this:

So what if it doesn't state it on the box. Does it say on the side of a car that it needs gas to run?

We were not talking about energy sources for cars, we were talking about warning labels, and the poster simply assumed for the purposes of his argument that cars run on gas. Obviously there need not be a warning label on a car stating that it needs gas to work since everyone knows they need it, just like they know that a refridgerator requires electricity. It's such elementary and common knowledge that there's no need to mention it.

DRM and copy protection mechanisms in PC games aren't elementary and common knowledge that need not be mentioned anywhere. There are a large number of different systems and methods in use. The only thing the consumer can know for almost certain is that some method of protection is present, and he can also be fairly confident that it won't prevent him from reselling the game later. And that's why there should be a warning on the game's packaging if the game uses restrictive or intrusive protection.

If you don't know the car, you can make mistake... if you make mistake, the producent is not responsible, you are responsible... same for the game... why do you complain here after having buy the game... what is not more easy to ask a question here BEFORE you buy the game ? A lot of people act first and think after... but the normal way is to think first and acting after... God have give us a brain, it is mean to be used...

Usually when you go buy a car you can easily find out what it runs on, or effortlessly look it up online. With SoaSE this is simply not possible because the DRM method is not described anywhere on the game's packaging, and going online will give you the erroneous impression that there's no DRM at all. Furthermore, most singleplayer games do not employ DRM or some other system that prohibits second hand sales.

This has all been explained over, over, over, over, over, over and over again. Is reading comprehension difficult for you, or did you just not bother to read the thread? Maybe you should take your own advice and use your fucking brain.

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hmm.

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First off,

epiclulz, as valid as you may think your argument is, you are misguided.

I would highly recomend that you start and try to run a small company before you attempt to preach how things should be done. It is only when you are face real choices concerning profit and loss and managing for profit will you come to understand that companies are not faceless, soulless money-grubbing machines. They are often dynamic and people driven, do not dehumanize what you do not understand.

And a few other points for you.

The persons at fault for the situation you found yourself in with the game is,

1. Your friend. He sold you a copy of the game, he is not an agent of Stardock nor is he a licensed retailer on Stardock's behalf. He could (and did) sell you a copy of the game, but he could not (and did not) sell you the license that would have supplied the support.

2. Yourself. Hopefully this will teach you a lesson to allways purchase a game from a licensed retailer if you intended to receive patches and updates like everyone else.

I would recomend that you attend a class and come to and understanding on how licensing works.

Patches and updates are support. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Unless Zubaz, Craig Fraizer, Kyro and the unknown ammount of employees affiliated with Stardock are the most charitable people I've ever met, (in a pseudo kind of way, I am playing thier game) or they expect and demand a paycheck now and again.

You also seem to have difficulty understanding privilages, entitlements, obligations, rights and all that jazz.

I hope I can help clear a little bit up for you.

"Free" patches and updates are indeed becoming a gold standard in the industry. As a customer of Stardock I have recived them at no extra charge. Not once in all the times I have downloaded a patch or update was I ever required to part with any of my money.

This is a service Stardock has chosen to give to me, I am not entitled to it at all. I was entitled to reciving a working/fuctioning game when I purchased the it (this is why we have customer protection laws), but I am not entitled to any extra.

You may be unaware of this, but data storage and server usage costs a FOURTANE.

I am not entitled to having access to these forums. Granted it did come with the game when I installed it, but with one click any moderator can change, delete or lock threads or ban me permanently from the forums. There would be nothing I could do about it either.

Don't go waving "FREE SPEECH!!!!" doesn't exist here, sorry.

Stardock's obligation to me, a customer is to suppy goods or services upon reciving payment for such. I purchased a copy of Sins and a license from Stardock. It is thier obligation to uphold thier end of the deal (which they have), the privliage to use the forums and to revice supprort (again updates) came as extra on thier behalf to me as customer appreciation.

Feel free to reject me as "fanboyism" but when you do it would only would only have ment you have "fanboyism" and "satisfied customer" confused as well.

FYI Deisel and Gasoline are indeed petroleum by-products, but they are not the same thing.

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I would highly recomend that you start and try to run a small company before you attempt to preach how things should be done. It is only when you are face real choices concerning profit and loss and managing for profit will you come to understand that companies are not faceless, soulless money-grubbing machines. They are often dynamic and people driven, do not dehumanize what you do not understand.

I assure you that companies can, in fact, survive while simultaneously allowing second hand sales to exist.

1. Your friend.

What friend? People keep telling me about this mysterious friend I supposedly have, but I have no idea who he is. I don't know who previously owned the game, I bought it second hand from a store.

He sold you a copy of the game, he is not an agent of Stardock nor is he a licensed retailer on Stardock's behalf. He could (and did) sell you a copy of the game, but he could not (and did not) sell you the license that would have supplied the support.

I wonder how many fucking times I've explained this already. Here it comes again: the store had no possible way of knowing about the game's DRM. It is not mentioned anywhere on the packaging, and the nature of the game does not suggest that it would have anything that would prevent second hand sales (and it wasn't made by Valve). If they had quickly googled "sins of a solar empire" + drm, they would have gotten the impression that it has no DRM at all.

2. Yourself. Hopefully this will teach you a lesson to allways purchase a game from a licensed retailer if you intended to receive patches and updates like everyone else.

Uh, I'm pretty sure the game store I went to is in fact a "licensed retailer." Furthermore, games utilizing the kind of DRM that SoaSe has are rare. Even World of Warcraft, for fuck's sake, has patches available as redistributable executables. This is yet another thing that I've already explained ad nauseam. Is there any reason in particular why you need me to repeat myself?

I would recomend that you attend a class and come to and understanding on how licensing works.

How licensing works is irrelevant.

Patches and updates are support. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Meanwhile in the real world, almost all games are patched through methods that do not require you to register a serial key with an online service.

Unless Zubaz, Craig Fraizer, Kyro and the unknown ammount of employees affiliated with Stardock are the most charitable people I've ever met, (in a pseudo kind of way, I am playing thier game) or they expect and demand a paycheck now and again.

If their continued existence is based upon limiting second hand sales, they deserve to go bankrupt as soon as humanly possible.

You also seem to have difficulty understanding privilages, entitlements, obligations, rights and all that jazz.

No, I understand consumer rights just fine. I understand, for example, that consumers should have the right to purchase used goods without any artificial and arbitrary restrictions placed upon them.

"Free" patches and updates are indeed becoming a gold standard in the industry.

Becoming? They've always been the standard. But now companies like Stardock and Valve are changing that.

You may be unaware of this, but data storage and server usage costs a FOURTANE.

You may be unaware of this, but it's cheaper to let Fileplanet etc. host your patches than run an online service for them.

I am not entitled to having access to these forums. Granted it did come with the game when I installed it, but with one click any moderator can change, delete or lock threads or ban me permanently from the forums. There would be nothing I could do about it either.

Don't go waving "FREE SPEECH!!!!" doesn't exist here, sorry.

What in fuck's name? Where did I go or was about to go waving "free speech"? I don't remember saying much if anything about these forums, and I certainly haven't brought up free speech.

FYI Deisel and Gasoline are indeed petroleum by-products, but they are not the same thing.

Did I say they are? And who cares?

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If their continued existence is based upon limiting second hand sales, they deserve to go bankrupt as soon as humanly possible.

Thier continued existence is based around helping the customers of thier company and to prevent expliotation of the company's product. Don't go crying a river if customer loss, product expliotation prevention is such a problem for you.

What in fuck's name? Where did I go or was about to go waving "free speech"? I don't remember saying much if anything about these forums, and I certainly haven't brought up free speech.

No you haven't but you have been carrying around what you think you are entitled to in your mind. I was hoping you to use that an an example to help explain to you that as a "second hand" customer, you have no entitlements and Stardock is not obligated to do anything for you.

You may be unaware of this, but it's cheaper to let Fileplanet etc. host your patches than run an online service for them.

How do you know that for sure?

No, I understand consumer rights just fine. I understand, for example, that consumers should have the right to purchase used goods without any artificial and arbitrary restrictions placed upon them.

What artifical and arbitary restrictions????? You got what you paid for, quit crying about it.

Meanwhile in the real world, almost all games are patched through methods that do not require you to register a serial key with an online service.

Which games? I would like to know, just about every game I have played has required me to have a CD key at one point or another.

Is there any reason in particular why you need me to repeat myself?

I will make you repeat yourself as many times as I feel like. It will go to show you that no matter how many times you say it, it will never be true.

Uh, I'm pretty sure the game store I went to is in fact a "licensed retailer."

What store? Whoever it may be, I would seriously doubt they would have both a license for sale and resale of the same product.

What friend?

Whoever sold you the game on the grounds it would work for you. He probably was acting like your friend then.

I wonder how many fucking times I've explained this already. Here it comes again: the store had no possible way of knowing about the game's DRM

Yes they would, if they legitimately do buisness they would have known. As a retailer is is thier job to know as much as they can about the product they are selling. It would be like a McDonalds not knowing that they used beef patties on thier hamburgers.

Ignorance is NEVER an excuse. Get over it.

How licensing works is irrelevant.

It is very relevent.,if you knew this would never have been an issue.

You got what you paid for (an actual working version of SINS). So why are you crying about it??????

If you should ba mad at anyone, it should be the retailer who sold you the game on false premise.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

It's been said before, and I'll say it once (and only once) more. We offer lifetime redownloading as an added value to legitimate first-time customers. We provide patches through that same, existing system because it is dramatically cheaper (both money and manpower-wise) than dealing with standalone installers.

We're not stopping anyone from buying a used copy, but as with many used products out there (in general--and as time goes on this will apply to software more and more), a used product is not going to give you the same value as a new one.

At the end of the day, you get no more or less than what you pay for. That's just the way it is.

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Quoting kryo,

reply 24

We're not stopping anyone from buying a used copy, but as with many used products out there (in general--and as time goes on this will apply to software more and more), a used product is not going to give you the same value as a new one.

Not sure... if i good remember, it have already happen that Stardock have transfered the "license" from one previous owner to a new one...

So, it seem that Stardock is enough open minded to allow second hand product to have the same value that a new one... Simply need to ask it friendly and not begin make a 10 page rant...

Of course, for the transfer, you need to know the previous owner since it is these one who need to initiate the transfer and renounce to his right on the game...

Now about the epiclulz second hand shop... i don't know how they work by them but here, in Belgium, the method is define by law... people who deposit second hand game are not paid directly, and contact information is asked... once the game is sell to someone other, he receive his money minus the shop commission... contact information are keeped during 5 year ( by ex in case of stolen product, defect product, etc )... Now, who know, maybe the guy who have deposit the game in the store have rob a family house... due to Stardock system, these family will be able to download the game again and use it fully...

So, the Stardock system is not bad... it give you right, same if you loose the original... it allow second hand by transfer of license ( following a strick procedure )... nothing to complain about...

Let take again the car example... the car is the product, the car-key are the license... first owner sell the car to a garage without the key... epiclulz by these second hand car in the garage... and he wrote a long rant to the car builder because he have not the car key and cannot use the car fully... can maybe sit in the car ( single player ) but cannot ride away ( multi player )...

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