eh, thats why i really stopped mp. To me, it seems that the same spams are being used from vanilla sins and entrenchment (i.e. Advent player = illums+aeria+anti structure) That is why i have always preferred mods over vanilla simply because they make you think more than spam

Greetings, 1st post, albiet have lurked these forums for a short while, mainly for mods and I am an expert at the "search" option....

-It seems like a catch 22 from what I'm reading, on several levels.  For example, newbies are scared to play guys with 300 games, but the guys with 300 games seemed to have said that 200 of those games the newbies quit before they even really gave it a shot, "one lost battle and they quit". 

-Another is Newbies look for others to play with in which smurfed accounts of skilled players really dilute that pool.  I can understand why skilled players "restart" their personal accounts if no one is willing to play them, but the question remains:

When you smurf an account, why is it the first map you hop on is with other self-admitted newbies?  And not aimed at other skilled players?  It's one thing to argue smurfed accounts, it's another in action when one only plays _real_ newbies.  It's very...well TEC of them.

So this is the message I walk away with:

1.  Play sins until you can best 2-3 AI on unfair, then you've gotten a good headstart for MP.

2.  Play a lot of games, watch replays, and study up, get better.

3.  Enjoy a time where people will play you until you earn a reputation as "unbeatable".

4.  Remake a new account so others will play with you again.

5.  Play on easy mode as you squash genuine newbies for the rest of your sins gaming life.

Now I know this doesn't apply to a good select number of veteran players who are simply here for fun gaming in a game they enjoy.  In short: Do anything you enjoy, lots, and you'll become a master, not remain the apprentice.

-The veterans also maintain that it's only a small handful of guys out there who really earn the bad reputation, the "PWN NOOBS!!!" guys...

However most casual or new players who has posted on this thread, has maintained they fight 2,3 or 5 battles in MP, get destroyed, get talked down too, note, not simple trash takling, and they walk away thinking, "screw mp"...

If it's a small handful, then logic dictates this wouldn't be the through and through that new players these days experience on a consitent basis.

Granted, this is all theory for me, as I've admittedly not ventured into MP with sins.  But it is a collection of past experiences and a thorough knowledge of these boards.  Call it an educated guess, if you will.

-Playstyle is paramount.  Me?  I'm an epic speed player who really digs building empires of diplomatic and trading dominance.  I prefer to remain "good" to all races, including pirates, until such a point that it's silly for the vassals to remain as another empire.  Often times renaming everything as I inherit a new empire, so it's a coalition of sorts and not a hostile takeover...well in perception.

This doesn't happen in MP, period.  Sure, I love a good battle as much as the next guy, so can be stirred into co-op or #vs# play, but by and large, if the game doesn't take 40 hours to complete, I'm generally not interested.

An hour long game spanning 6 star systems just isn't appealing to me, it's not realistic to any degree.  There is no immersion.  Whoever can dominate the quickest wins.  Rome wasn't built in a day, but it sure fell in a day, quite literally.

Another poster (on page 3 or something) once related a MP fight, they bluffed, sending a quick large fleet early in game to flatten another empire.  They didn't win the war in those short stomp battles, and had the newbie persisted at the rate they were building (and not just quit the game) they could have steamrolled the veteran as they had nothing else.  I imagine this is 75% of MP battles to be honest.

I don't mind losing, and losing bad.  As a new player, in any game, that will happen, more than not and more times than one probably cares to count.  But eventually you hold out another 5 minutes, ten minutes, until, oh...i've won...That applies to everything in life.  Practice makes perfect...Be it Michael Phelps at Beijing or the uber sins player at ironclad_online...

What I do mind, is listening to some whelp talk down to me, while playing a game mommy probably payed for.  That is what makes me quit a game, not losing.  Another poster related his experience as a contact sports player.  As a 220 ib. 6'3 active rugby player, I can sympathize.

Fact is, I don't have any firends that play this game, and short of MMO's I've played before (curerntly in CO closed beta and City of Heroes..) don't really have a base to build from, from either FPS or RTS.  I've always wanted the MP aspect of diplomacy opportunities, but reality insists that doesn't happen, this thread serves to prove that. 

However, I'd love to be proven wrong in practice.

Yup. I've got a killer rig, but my connection is terrible. Unfortunately I have to go wireless (can't route ethernet upstairs), and in a suburban area, there is a ton of interference. I may give multiplayer a first try, but it all depends on my connection. Unfortunately, being away, all I have to play is a Macbook with a GM 950.  

Then you imagine wrong. Most newbs/noobs quit as they face a fleet 2-3 times larger then theirs and cannot fathom why this has occured - queue Rage Quit and then gg not long after as the game in unbalanced (e.g. 5 humans vs 4 humans and an AI) - they often fail to realise that because one side of the map is losing, the other is often winning due to feeding etc...

People get too emotional

Currently I am climbing the ladder of AI difficulty; I also lag a bit with my current ISP and don't wish to impose this on other MP participants.  So it's a good learning curve and I have time to amp it up.  I hardly expect to beat unfair AI and pop in to MP and be able to hold my own.  Currently I'm on medium resources for all AI.

Additionally, I am learning TEC as best I can; from what I read, no one seems to have much of a knack for it besides a few specific players.  Either way, learn a race and stick with it.

I am also following sage advice and learning TONS from watching multiplayer demos.  I excel at fast economy, this I know, comparatively to demos I've been studying.  To be inner pocket and feeding my allies I imagine will not only be an easier "step" into MP, but also allows new players to witness in real time your allies skills and where and how they specialize.  The other skillset I seem to have the knack for, is specializing in anti-ship spam.  A commando fleet if you will, that hunts down, for example, pure Ilum ship only fleets, amongst others.

MY member ID cries newest guy here most likely, but for any other new players out there, the advice from the veterans out here regarding the above points is spot on.  Even my gameplay single player has improved drastically, so I'm enjoying the game on a whole new, more challenging level.

I've started studying up on modding as well, and am even formulating a mod that I wish to attempt.  This is a whole different perspective in regards to really understanding the science and skill sets of individual techs and units / construction.  This as well, as seriously increased my knowledge of gameplay.  Analogy: An F-22 pilot (most have doctorates) go to school for a reason.  Knowing why your ride moves this way and that improves a pilot's actual ability when performing the maneuver, rather than just being told that's the best way to do it.  Learning the game from a modder point of view can really increase your raw abilities in game.  This impacts both MP and single player, respectively.

One more possible helpful tip: It's a little nerdy, so forgive me, but screenshotting the unit tree and going offline and "quizzing" yourself which icons are which ships, specifically, what they do, and mainly, what they are weak against, improves your play drastically.  You're going to have to learn to use the unit tree eventually if you want to excel, so why do it while getting your backside handed to you?  One doesn't learn the positions and what they're goal is when you scrum down or roll into a ruck, you know it before hand.  (Sorry I like analogies and every day comparisons).

Well since my internet sucks as well, maybe that's a fair balancer for the both of us. At least the other can't cry foul without being able to sympathize to a disconnect 4 hours in or lag here and there.

My point of view and you're explanation for why people quit are pretty similar, unless I misread, it seems you have reinformced what I imagine, as right.  If the multiplayer / general /  strategy sections of this forum is any indication, let alone this thread, new players quit after the first or second skirmish.  Point is, people quit when they lose a battle.  The issue is (and I agree with you) is they don't care why they got steamrolled, they just care because they only have a colony ship and two frigates sitting while they research advanced ice populations and have no ice planets...and it's "nu uh that's unfair!" /quit.  Regardless, I am not that player.  Until one asks, "why / how did I get beat?", they won't get any better, and it only reinformces the veterans desire to not play with us [noobs].

I agree, people do get too emotional, however being behind a computer monitor isn't a reason to drop common courtesy to your fellow players.  MP is about enjoyment of a game with other players who are like minded.  If one only MPs for personal satisfaction, then yes, MP will be broken to them.  However the best any can do is ostracize those kind of players.  Or more over, since this post is more for the new players, like me: Learn the names of people in this thread who seem to desire more fulfilling multiplayer gaming, rather than just more people to MP with, new, or old, and try to land a spot on their teams when you venture over to ICO.

P.S. Yes, I am cabable of not righting essays, some days.

This timeless thread is due for its <BUMP>.

New Players--it seems like more people and more newer players are around on the weekends, so that might be a good time to give it a try.

Most of the better online players can take on 3 to 5 unfair AI's easily.  You may want to use that as a guage to your skill lvl.  You gotta look at it at the other palyers who play online on a regular basis. Having someone lose easily to someone in the first 20 mins without putting much of a fight will lose it for the whole team.  It will be an up hill battle and possible waste of the time for the next 2 hours as they try to recover from a teamates easy early defeat.

I usually dont mind letting newer players play, but I wish they would listen instead of relying on feed to survive a 1v1 battle

If you cant last 20 mins to someone who spams scouts or lrms, which can easily be beat by another spam, then lacking that basic of basic knowledge wont get you far in the game.  Basically if both sides start spamming, eventually both sides will have a well balance fleet in order not to get whipped out by a single unit spam.

I know a lot of players come and play with a certain strategy and complain that they didnt get the time to carry out that strategy.  You have to go online and be open to various strategy.  Best strategy exploits the weakness of the other.

Can't say that I "fear" them, I know I'll get whalloped sooner or later. But it annoys the heck out of me when I host ffa games and I end up being the only one getting attacked (even with locked teams mind you,) Or doing a team game and not getting support quick enough 'cause my teamates build 101 tradeports.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that sportsmanship is pretty much dead. Not completely, but enough so that I'd rather just play lan games.

Its not about spamming its about countering what the other guy has. You make the unit that will counter his.  Most noobs tend to make the mistake of making lots of LF which will lose easily to lrf.  So if the noob is making tons of LF then I'll be making lots of LRF.  Then I'll see that same person switch to carriers or perhaps LRF themselves.  Most likely I'll have flak to counter that next unit.  At this time I'll be at the persons hw if the person is a noob.

Most of the online players, this dance of making different units can go on for sometime which will result in a balance fleet. For a noob it only takes 1 to 2 unit change to eventually lose.

Spamming is the idea of exploiting 1 particular unit to hit the opponent early and fast. You rely just on the OP of the unit rather than skill. Yes. I agree spamming is annoying.

What you have completely ignored is that (and JJ clearly said this) an understanding of what counters what will decide the game. If he spams one unit, then your fleet should consist purely of the counter to said unit.

Is it spamming when you're making 1 unit to counter an opponent who makes something else? For instance, am I scout spamming if I am using them to fight an Illum spammer?

NO. That's countering. Spammers make the game VERY VERY simple. Build the counter, and he'll fold. It's really that simple.

Is the online pace fast? You bet. Do you need to understand the counters to be good? You bet. Is it spamming if you build a fleet of 1 unit that completely counters the opponent (he spammed flak so you spammed light frigs?). I say no.