In fact I don't understand why spells "could" be random? Wizards work with no idea of what they can achieve?

hum ... and why not some "general" kind of spells like attack/defense/global/diplomacy/etc.... and you have the option to ask something mor or less precise to your wizards. If you give just general indication the research is fast. If you give them very precise things it takes longer to achieve.

For instance, you ask in research a defence spells. It's fast but you don't know for sure what kind of spell you'll get.

But you could also ask for a defence spell thaht is global. then it takes longer.

Or you could ask for spell #34 (thaht is the spell of global defence you want) and it takes a while to research.

That would be cool

Well, in MOM the spellbook contained loads of spells in runic writing, so I always assumed the wizard had found some old ancient spellbook and he had to decode the runes and magical theories behind the spell to be able to use it. Not really crafting an entirely new spell himself, he just uses what is already there.(presumably because it's faster and since someone has already used the effort to make it, why bother yourself?) The fact that you can trade and find spells supports this idea, I think.

Would I be correct in assumeing that we can agree on the following?

Random helps replayability.

Random that removes player choice is bad.

With both a random map generator AND a map editor I would say it is safe to assume that replayability will not be hurt by 'Stale' maps.

My concern is replayability due to 'Stale' tactics.  I'm going to go back to Starcraft again as it is a GREAT game and when it came out I was a top player.  I played Starcraft a lot and loved it.  The only reason I don't still play it is because the computer is no longer a challange and playing against human oponents offers no new experences.  I am looking for something that would make every game require a re-evaluation of my favorite tactics and I think the best way to do that is to add a SMALL amount of random to the balance of spells and units.

I love the way MoM did spell research.

   If you want to be able to cast a type of spell you need to be trained in that type of magic (Durring character creation).

   You have a number of spells per type depending on the amount of training in that type of magic.

   The more training you have in a type of magic the more spells you can choose of that type.

   If you can't research a spell you can always trade for it.

This random is NOT removing player choice.  It adds a choice that matters to the game. 

vieuxchat - You used an example where you "want to play a game with one or two really powerfull heroes and few armies" and woried that random would keep you from getting the spells you need to do this.  Make the choice to spend the points to get the spells you want durring character creation.

To me the best game is one filled with choices that matter. 

Sammual

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about availability, but research. If I take only 3 books of nature I think i can't cast better spells than the level 3 in nature.

But when you open the "what will I research next?" you should have real choices. In AoW I often, and I really mean often, lack the bless or heal spell for long, cause the research page fills with other spells.

Or another example : you create a "summoner" type of faction. So you relate on summons, and research offers you no summon spells? that would be something I really wouldn't like. It's like the game playing instead of me.

On the other hand I would really like something like a research lab that don't know what they are "really" searching, but the general way.

Instead of having "research bless" you would have "research support spells, attack spell, summon spell, civic spell, diplomatic spell, archmage spell, etc.."

Then you could stay with what you need ("I want summons !! What? Summoning a dire bear? Hum.. why not I would prefer a fire elemental but .. hey .. that's life") with some randomness !!

We are talking about different things.

In MoM if you took one White book you could CAST any White spell.

You had the ability to research 1 Rare Whites spell, 3 Uncommon Whites spells, and 5 Common White spells.

You could not choose any White spells.

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If you took three White books you could CAST any White spell.

You had the ability to research 1 Ultra Rare Whites spell, 2 Rare White spells, 5 Uncommon Whites spells, and 7 Common White spells.

You could choose any 2 Common White spells.

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If you took five White books you could CAST any White spell.

You had the ability to research 1 Ultra Rare Whites spell, 3 Rare White spells, 7 Uncommon Whites spells, and 9 Common White spells.

You could choose any 3 Common White spells and 1 Uncommon White spell.

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If you took ten White books you could CAST any White spell.

You had the ability to research 3 of the 4 Ultra Rare Whites spell, 7 of the 8 Rare White spells, All Uncommon Whites spells, and All Common White spells.

You could choose any 1 Ultra Rare White spell, 2 Rare White spells, and you got all the rest.

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You could ALWAYS make shure you got the spell you wanted as long as you spent the Caracter Creation Points.

The only thing you could not do was take both White and Black magic.

Even if you didn't have the ability to research a spell (Random happened) you could still find it or trade for it.  I don't think there was ever a game where I was missing a Common or Uncommon spell I wanted.  You always had options (Unless you took no spell books but that was your choice).

Sammual

In concept I like it.

I'm just not sure that the time it would take to develop would be worth it.

What would it add? 

Sammual

Ahh, but it wouldn't add to the Randomness I want.

I want to make the game as replayable as possible.

Giving the player a different set of tools to play with each game makes each game different as they have to make different decisions each game.

The research method you suggested would allow a player to get exactly what they wanted every time.  Players would just find the order that best fit thier playstyle and it would become the 'rote' (Starcraft build order).

Sammual

I'm not a friend of randomness. I defined magic as a realization of thinking. You think a firewall and it appears after a time of thinking and use of mana. Your spellbook is really only a choice of type of thinking.

In my magic-system you can speak every spell, but the better spells needs a lot of mana per round, so not every magician can speak them at the beginning. You must practise your magician and so he can speak powerful spells later in the game.

A last word to the spells: I prefer spells (and units too) there are well balanced, so every spell is good in the game. I now, its not easy to impelment this. But I don't use the mud-spell in MoM, because it was to weak. If the mud-spell have more effects, like mudholes that can kill or adherence enemys, he would be very nice.

If you are going to do a penalty route for using opposing forces then I think 3x per type of difference. For example if there are eight magic styles in a wheel the going from the top to the bottom the opposite magic will cost you 4x3 or base 12 per spell. That would then be multiplied by level of spell. So if you want to use a level 4 spell the cost would be 48 times. I think 1000 plus it way overboard. Hell I'm not sure the system will have that many points. Shoot three times base may even be too high. Maybe twice (x2) times the level would be best.

I assumed you were at first but then again sometimes you scare me brother man - just sometimes...

@landisaurus - excellent ideas.

I think they're the heads of the beasts faction and I'll be that somebody'll try to mod them in.