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NEWS: Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished from Site in Iraq

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Reply #51 October 30, 2004 7:32:23 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
T_B the IAEA sealed and kept track of dual purpose items as they could have WMD application, but also had possible non WMD application


You are apparently unclear on "dual use" which is neither here nor there. Any and all items that had any remote connection to nuclear devises, research, support, et. al. was and is prohibited and was to be removed and destroyed or otherwise rendered harmless.
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Reply #52 October 30, 2004 8:13:57 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Sorry this was a double post (my computer locked up mid post - please delete)
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Daiwa
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Reply #53 October 30, 2004 9:12:02 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
COL -

After reading this series of Blogs it appears that the forrest has been lost for the trees. The real issue is not if there were 380 tons or 400 tons. Not if there is proof that this material was stolen. Not if it could have been removed. The issue is how the United States handled the Iraq war.


NO, that's NOT the issue. This is just another tactic routinely employed by someone who has no facts to back up their allegation, the old misdirection play. Just like Dan Rather saying it doesn't matter whether his documents are fake, the "issues raised" are the whole point. What a crock of shit. If you want to argue the merits of the Iraq war, fine, but don't use this pile of manure as a basis for any of that argument.

And Don -

Bush is in the same bind. On one level the explosives issue is unfortunate but not worthy of presidential politics -- yet, by making his leadership in the war -- and the war's success -- so central to his campaign, Bush leaves himself vulnerable to this stuff.


Another crock which presumes the accusation to be true. We don't know that.

With regrets to the horse,
Daiwa
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Reply #54 October 30, 2004 10:05:40 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #49 By: Don Bemont - 10/30/2004 7:10:27 PM
Perhaps you are naive enough to believe Kerry was talking about Bush and Condi Rice guarding the facility.
The major network sources quoted people who had been on the scene as making the point that the troops who went through the area simply did not have the manpower to secure such a facility.


What a crock! The 101st was there on site. All it would take to secure the site would be a company. When securing a site you limit access to entrances/exits and grounds. Are you seriously going to tell me the 101st or 3rd Div weren't enough to secure the site?Most of this facility is underground! It's NOT that difficult to secure.
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Reply #55 October 31, 2004 5:17:22 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Any and all items that had any remote connection to nuclear devises, research, support, et. al. was and is prohibited and was to be removed and destroyed or otherwise rendered harmless


Not true. Dual use items were to be carefully inspected, tagged and controlled to ensure that they were being used for the right application. This was true of major chemical labs, aluminum rocket casings (which initially were suspected as centrifuge components), pre-cursor chemicals (which often had secondary fertilizer uses) and high explosives. Any single use items were to be immediately destroyed though.

Paul.
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Reply #56 October 31, 2004 7:38:59 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The issue is not just the expolsives at this site but the fact we did not control the explosives all over Iraq that have been used to kiill our troops. That has not beed addressed and is a FAR BIGGER ISSUE! It gets to the judgement of GW in the way he planned and conducted this war.

My greatest fear in re-electing Bush is what he might do in another Iraq develops. Will he make the same mistakes again. Since he does not seem to know he made errors, will he make them again? Very likely!
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Reply #57 October 31, 2004 7:42:40 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The issue is not just this site buty all the other sites from which the terrorists have been taking explosives to kill Americans. That is a nuch bigger issue and failure of Bush
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Daiwa
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Reply #58 October 31, 2004 11:46:08 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The issue is not just this site buty all the other sites from which the terrorists have been taking explosives to kill Americans. That is a nuch bigger issue and failure of Bush


Another accusation without proof. This is getting very old.

Cheers,
Daiwa
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Reply #59 October 31, 2004 12:18:53 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #57 By: COL Gene - 10/31/2004 7:42:40 AM
The issue is not just this site buty all the other sites from which the terrorists have been taking explosives to kill Americans. That is a nuch bigger issue and failure of Bush


*Really old*!
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Reply #60 October 31, 2004 4:35:53 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Not true


Read UN resolution 687, section C, I don't think there can be debate on this. Some of the items that IAEA found were possible components for nuclear warheads. Tubes, fertilizer chems and the machinery have civilian use.
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Reply #61 November 1, 2004 3:56:29 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I have reread section C and paragraph 12 in particular. This does not conflict with my statement above. You'll notice the statement "the destruction, the removal or the rendering harmless AS APPROPRIATE". It is considered unappropriate to destroy dual use items that are legit for other uses. These were tagged and carefully traced in order to render them harmless.

High explosives fall into this category.

Paul.
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Reply #62 November 1, 2004 12:35:51 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
I have reread section C and paragraph 12 in particular


12. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material or any subsystems or components or any research, development, support or manufacturing facilities related to the above; to submit to the Secretary-General and the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution a declaration of the locations, amounts, and types of all items specified above; to place all of its nuclear-weapons-usable materials under the exclusive control, for custody and removal, of the International Atomic Energy Agency, with the assistance and cooperation of the Special Commission as provided for in the plan of the Secretary-General discussed in paragraph 9 ( above; to accept, in accordance with the arrangements provided for in paragraph 13 below, urgent on-site inspection and the destruction, removal or rendering harmless as appropriate of all items specified above; and to accept the plan discussed in paragraph 13 below for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of its compliance with these undertakings;

These were tagged and carefully traced in order to render them harmless


Let's assume that the specific explosives (nuclear-weapons-usable-material) which are a component of a nuclear devise were to be removed, destroyed or rendered harmless (even though it clearly states removed).

So are you saying that by locking the door, the IAEA rendered them harmless? Are these items now harmless? If they were rendered harmless, they can cause NO HARM. If they were "rendered harmless" would anyone have any concern over the items? This is clearly not the case.

The items under debate don't seem like dual use to me. I suppose you can argue there are civilian uses for the explosives. Although if that was the intent of the UN (that these items be considered dual use) I would consider it seriously flawed. I also can't see how this was a dual use facility, in was a munitions depot, "Dual-use" means that a facility has the potential to produce military as well as civilian goods (example: the "Baby Milk" factory). The facilities co-located with the depot made missles and did not produce anything of civilian use. The plant was known as Latifiya Explosives and Ammunition Plant al Qa Qaa. That does not sound dual use to me. I suppose the debate over "dual use" is fruitless.

Still, if the items were nuclear weapons usable does it not say they were to be removed? That's what I read. And if they were to be rendered harmless, well, it certainly doesn't seem to me they were or there would be no concern.
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