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sandy2
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English as a national language

October 18, 2004 2:07:58 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I was watching an episode of West Wing, and it was discussing preventing a bill making English the national language from passing. I mean, I consider myself to be left leaning, but come on, we should have English the national language. English should (if its not already) be taught to all students in all schools, and to become a citizen you should be required to be proficient in english. We are an english country, we need to stay that way.
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sandy2
Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #1 October 18, 2004 2:35:22 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
No, we are not an english country, we are however a multi-cultural country and forcing a language down on someone is the same as forcing religion or politics down on someone.

Don't you think people deserve a choice in what language they want to speak, write,etc.?
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drmiler
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Reply #2 October 18, 2004 2:51:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #1 By: Grim Xiozan - 10/18/2004 2:35:22 PM
No, we are not an english country, we are however a multi-cultural country and forcing a language down on someone is the same as forcing religion or politics down on someone.

Don't you think people deserve a choice in what language they want to speak, write,etc.?


Sorry Grim but I disagree. If you were to move to say Spain you would almost have to learn Spanish just to be able to get along.Which is understandable.They aren't going to change the way they speak just so you'll understand. And if your speaking what they consider a foreign language they'll ignore you for the most part. And it's that way in most countries in the world. In the USN for 6 and did a fewtours of duty on board ship so I know this to be fact. But to answer your question. No I don't think they should have that option. This is America, speak American! Why should I who was born in this country and will probably die here have to learn another language to be understood? BTW if you look at the requirements for becoming a citizen....You'll see that they are "required to read, write and speak the English language".
Here's a quote and the link showing this.



Welcome to the naturalization home page. Naturalization is the process by which U.S. citizenship is conferred upon a foreign citizen or national after he or she fulfills the requirements established by Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). The general requirements for administrative naturalization include:

a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
an ability to read, write, and speak English;



Link
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sandy2
Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #3 October 18, 2004 3:15:03 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Oh well, we can agree to disagree.
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drmiler
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Reply #4 October 18, 2004 3:21:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #3 By: Grim Xiozan - 10/18/2004 3:15:27 PM
Oh well, we can agree to disagree.


There ain't no disagree to it Grim. It's required by law for citizenship!
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citahellion
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #5 October 18, 2004 3:23:56 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Don't you think people deserve a choice in what language they want to speak, write,etc.?


Sure! If they want to speak Spanish, they can go to Spain or Mexico. If they want to speak French, they can go to France, Belgium, or Monaco. If they want to speak German, they can go to Germany, Austria, or The Netherlands. And if they want to speak English, they can go to Great Britain, the US, or The Netherlands again. There's all sorts of choices!

What's more, they can speak Urdu, Navaho, Spanish, Nepali, Mandarin, Latin, Hindi, or anything else they want in their home. No problem at all.

forcing a language down on someone is the same as forcing religion or politics down on someone.


I've got to disagree with you completely on this. Requiring someone to speak English when they interact with a government official, or expecting someone to speak English when they talk to a shopkeeper or waitress or whatever, cannot properly be characterised as "forcing a language down on someone." If we were to come into their homes and prevent them from speaking (say) Esperanto, that would be forcing it on them. If foreign languages were not offered in school and anyone caught speaking another language were punished, that would be forcing a language on someone.

Asking the entire country to accommodate the needs of a few non-citizens is frankly ridiculous. Like it or not, we are an English-speaking country.
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drmiler
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Reply #6 October 18, 2004 3:31:00 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Reply #1 By: Grim Xiozan - 10/18/2004 2:35:22 PM
No, we are not an english country, we are however a multi-cultural country and forcing a language down on someone is the same as forcing religion or politics down on someone.

Don't you think people deserve a choice in what language they want to speak, write,etc.?


Grim it looks like your in the minority here bro!
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Alex Gottschalk
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Reply #7 October 18, 2004 3:34:16 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Let's face it: ENGLISH should be the National Language of the WORLD!
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Abe Cubbage
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #8 October 18, 2004 3:39:34 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
We are an English speaking country and for convenience I think we should make it official. It isn't about culture or a person's rights, it's just communication.
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Jamie Burnside
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Reply #9 October 18, 2004 3:47:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

It is proven that kids (and adults) learn content more quickly in their native language than in a foreign language.  In fact, it takes about seven years for (average) non-native English speakers to become sufficiently proficient in academic English to be able to keep up with native English-speaking peers.


It makes sense to help non-native speaking students with their second language while being introduced to content support in their native language.

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drmiler
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Reply #10 October 18, 2004 4:37:07 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Reply #9 By: Jamie Burnside - 10/18/2004 3:47:12 PM
It is proven that kids (and adults) learn content more quickly in their native language than in a foreign language. In fact, it takes about seven years for (average) non-native English speakers to become sufficiently proficient in academic English to be able to keep up with native English-speaking peers.


It makes sense to help non-native speaking students with their second language while being introduced to content support in their native language.


Sorry but I disagree. Have you looked at the requirements for US citizenship? The link is posted above. Go read it. #3 plainly states that they *must* be able to read, write and *speak* the English language. That's the law!
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sandy2
sandy2
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Reply #11 October 18, 2004 4:51:58 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It is proven that kids (and adults) learn content more quickly in their native language than in a foreign language. In fact, it takes about seven years for (average) non-native English speakers to become sufficiently proficient in academic English to be able to keep up with native English-speaking peers.


It makes sense to help non-native speaking students with their second language while being introduced to content support in their native language.


I never said they couldn't speak their "native" language, however I believe that all schools MUST teach english as a main langauge and that to be considered governmentally literate you must be literate in English. Drmiller is this the first time we ever agree?!
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Reply #12 October 18, 2004 4:54:08 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
And that law should be enforced, I live in an area where we have qutie a few Mexican Imagrants, Most of which have become citizen. However they now expect to be catered to in Spanish and the local businnesses do it.

My Wife who is Spanish ( From Spain not Mexico) spent a while working for one of the large local car dealers to translate for them. Until she realized how badly they were screwing the Mexican-American customer.
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dharmagrl
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Reply #13 October 18, 2004 4:54:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums


Reply #9 By: Jamie Burnside - 10/18/2004 3:47:12 PM
It is proven that kids (and adults) learn content more quickly in their native language than in a foreign language. In fact, it takes about seven years for (average) non-native English speakers to become sufficiently proficient in academic English to be able to keep up with native English-speaking peers.


It makes sense to help non-native speaking students with their second language while being introduced to content support in their native language.


There's a BIG difference between helping someone learn English and pandering to their refusal to learn it.......

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Bungy32
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Reply #14 October 18, 2004 5:22:00 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Funny that no one has mentioned our neighbor to the North where the presence of two national languages hasn't presented too much difficulty (except for the occasional attempt by the French Canadian's to secede).

I think I fall into the English as the national language camp, barely. However, I am gravely concerned that the US fosters a culture of zenophobia by not encouraging second language skills strongly enough in our public education. I've watched foreign language skills and requirements decline steadily over the last 20 years. Behind arts and music, language programs are often the first to be cancelled or scaled back in our public high schools. Foreign language proficiency requirements are becoming less and less emphasized in our colleges at both the graduate and undergraduate level.

The damage here is not just that you only learn one language. Rather, the language that you know you don't know that well because it is the only language you know. Studying other languages makes you more aware of how language shapes your perception of the world -- and how subtle and pernicious that shaping can be. The rest of the world tends to emphasize learning multiple languages. Fortunately for us and them, this usually includes English.
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Reply #15 October 18, 2004 5:27:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Funny that no one has mentioned our neighbor to the North where the presence of two national languages hasn't presented too much difficulty (except for the occasional attempt by the French Canadian's to secede).

I think I fall into the English as the national language camp, barely. However, I am gravely concerned that the US fosters a culture of zenophobia by not encouraging second language skills strongly enough in our public education. I've watched foreign language skills and requirements decline steadily over the last 20 years. Behind arts and music, language programs are often the first to be cancelled or scaled back in our public high schools. Foreign language proficiency requirements are becoming less and less emphasized in our colleges at both the graduate and undergraduate level.

The damage here is not just that you only learn one language. Rather, the language that you know you don't know that well because it is the only language you know. Studying other languages makes you more aware of how language shapes your perception of the world -- and how subtle and pernicious that shaping can be. The rest of the world tends to emphasize learning multiple languages. Fortunately for us and them, this usually includes English.


I think that as "secondary" languages, public high schools should teach french, spanish and chinese. I think that these languages, with English, are the most important languages for Americans to learn. I think we should learn other cultures and languages, but everyone should know english.
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Abe Cubbage
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Reply #16 October 18, 2004 5:50:25 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I think everyone should have to learn Latin since it's the base for all the Romance languages. I am starting to introduce it to my 8yr old son--poor little guy.
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drmiler
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Reply #17 October 18, 2004 5:59:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #11 By: sandy2 - 10/18/2004 4:51:58 PM
It is proven that kids (and adults) learn content more quickly in their native language than in a foreign language. In fact, it takes about seven years for (average) non-native English speakers to become sufficiently proficient in academic English to be able to keep up with native English-speaking peers.


It makes sense to help non-native speaking students with their second language while being introduced to content support in their native language.


I never said they couldn't speak their "native" language, however I believe that all schools MUST teach english as a main langauge and that to be considered governmentally literate you must be literate in English. Drmiller is this the first time we ever ag


Hmmmmmmm could be! ( he says in his best Bugs Bunny imatation).
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Alex Gottschalk
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Reply #18 October 18, 2004 7:04:27 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Yeah, but When am ordering food or something i want the people to understand what THING I'm ordering!
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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #19 October 18, 2004 7:32:56 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
So Puerto Ricans must speak English even though they are considered US Citizens, or is law only going to apply to the states and not the terrorities?
Last time I checked I think all schools in the United States teach English, of course you can argue if it is proper English or bastardized English.
Do we need redundant laws on the books that effectively undermine what a state can do or not do with a school?
Do we need more Federal involvement in the school system, a place in which the federal government does not belong?

- Grimingo Xlamingo
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sandy2
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Reply #20 October 18, 2004 7:36:53 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So Puerto Ricans must speak English even though they are considered US Citizens, or is law only going to apply to the states and not the terrorities?
Last time I checked I think all schools in the United States teach English, of course you can argue if it is proper English or bastardized English.
Do we need redundant laws on the books that effectively undermine what a state can do or not do with a school?
Do we need more Federal involvement in the school system, a place in which the federal government does not belong?


Yes Puerto Ricans must speak english, or they can sucede from the country if they want. Otherwise, they will speak english. Further, this only applies to NEW US citizens, anyone born in the USA is automatically a citizen, you can't force them to speak english. And I don't care for states rights over my right to speak english and not have to put up with non-english speaking citizens.
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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #21 October 18, 2004 7:39:22 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
So you believe your individual rights are important over others, hmmm.
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drmiler
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Reply #22 October 18, 2004 7:48:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #19 By: Grim Xiozan - 10/18/2004 7:33:26 PM
So Puerto Ricans must speak English even though they are considered US Citizens, or is law only going to apply to the states and not the terrorities?
Last time I checked I think all schools in the United States teach English,


This is what you get for thinking. What your saying don't hold water in southern CA my friend.
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shadesofgrey
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Reply #23 October 18, 2004 7:58:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Sorry but I disagree. Have you looked at the requirements for US citizenship? The link is posted above. Go read it. #3 plainly states that they *must* be able to read, write and *speak* the English language. That's the law!


If the debate is whether or not to change the law, saying "it's the law" is not a helpful addition to the debate.

Jamie--I wasn't aware of that research though it makes complete sense--I have a Norwegian friend who speaks impeccable english (she's probably more grammatically accurate than most Americans I know) but she always counts in Norwegian--she says she can't help it!

Yes Puerto Ricans must speak english

Actually, in PR, both spanish and english are the offiical languages. However, even though spanish is more dominant; all federal matters have to be conducted in english. The language debate has gone back and forth over the years--for a brief time spanish was the only official language.

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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #24 October 18, 2004 7:58:41 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
This is what you get for thinking. What your saying don't hold water in southern CA my friend.


You are joking they have schools in Southern California that do not teach English?
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drmiler
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Reply #25 October 18, 2004 8:08:00 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply #24 By: Grim Xiozan - 10/18/2004 7:58:41 PM
This is what you get for thinking. What your saying don't hold water in southern CA my friend.


You are joking they have schools in Southern California that do not teach English?


No I ain't joking. I'll look and see if I can find the link again. I was living there at the time and I remember the stink it raised. Do you realize that in southern CA being white/non-hispanic makes you a minority?
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