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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
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Liberty, Individual Rights and the TRUE American Way

Includes links to some good Philosophical views on Government and Helping the poor

October 17, 2004 4:44:09 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Liberty, what means this liberty? What is the definition of liberty?

Webster defines it as:
Link to Webster Definition
    Main Entry: lib·er·ty
    Pronunciation: 'li-b&r-tE
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French liberté, from Latin libertat-, libertas, from liber free -- more at LIBERAL
    1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic
        control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice
    synonym see FREEDOM

So what does this mean to you and to me?

    It means you and I should possess the freedom of choice to do whatever we want in our own lives even IF it includes harming ourselves. Though this does not mean that we should harm others because if we did that we would be encroaching on someone else's liberty. That you and I share rights that are even protected by the Government (or is it?). Should I support your way of choice even when I don't agree with it? No, but an a case against this is Abortion (Government Funds Abortion!), Corporate Welfare (pays for Corporations to advertise overseas), welfare (though I think we can do better than just doling out money to those in need), and several other issues. Why is Government this way? Who gave them the power? Which Major Political Party is responsible?
    Government has gotten this way by supporting the ideas and political agendas that people should depend on the Government for everything, from what they eat, to how they spend their money, etc. As for who gave them the power look no further than you and I, we gave them the power by voting in politicians who want to keep us under control and dependent on government. Which political party is responsible, some would say Democrats, others would say Republicans, I would say it takes two to tango and both are equally responsible for this.

So why should I listen to you, Grim X?

    Don't! You should not listen to me or anybody on how to make your own choices. Do you really need a Paternal Government caring for your life? Did you not decide to get through life on your own?
    Instead of having a Mommy or Daddy Government caring for you instead live your own life! The Government caring and taking care of you telling you how to live your life is like me telling you what to do, but yet you like the Government for being a parent. What is the difference? Nothing that is what!

Individual Rights and the TRUE American Way

    With Liberty intact we can achieve the TRUE American Way but two major political parties and several third parties don't want that, instead they want bigger government that means more taxes to pay for the more spending done by the larger government.  That is not the American Way, because the bigger government leads to more regulations over each individual's life limiting their liberty to what the government decides. So if you need a mommy or daddy government to tell you how to wipe your ass and clean your nose, than by all means get out of America NOW!!
    Those who have died fighting, have fought for or are still fighting for American Liberty do it because they don't need a Mommy/Daddy telling them how to run their lives, they do it so they have the Freedom to do whatever they want with THEIR OWN LIVES! Are they wrong for doing this? Hell no, they are never wrong for doing this those who are against it are the ones who are wrong and should leave this country NOW!!
    America was founded on the principle of Liberty and every soldier/citizen who has fought for or died for that cause do it because they fight for Liberty but yet we have two Major Political Parties and several Third Parties that spit on their sacrifice by taking away the Liberty of these individuals. That is never right no matter how you try to justify it, whether it be from the Liberals or Conservatives it is never right and always wrong PERIOD!

If we do not take action now expect your and my liberties to be curtailed for further control and dependence on the Government!!

    So far the only Political Party that I have looked at that supports this view on Liberty wholeheartedly is NOT the Democrats, Republicans, Green, Socialist, but the Libertarian Party!!  To side with other parties don't support the view of Liberty first and Government second is to say you don't like Liberty, right?

I can understand a difference in opinion and some officials in a Party don't represent their whole party, case in point Kerry and Bush.

For those of you who love/support Kerry: Tell me how or what Kerry is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!! Don't tell me anything about how Bush is going against Liberty, only tell me about Kerry.

For those of you who love/support Bush: Tell me how or what Bush is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!! Don't tell me anything about how Kerry is going against Liberty, only tell me about Bush.

I dare you to respond or are you a chicken? Or do you not know how your candidate is defending the cause of Liberty?

Sincerely,
Erik D. Stebbins, Former SPC in the United States Army Active Duty (Nov 2001-Feb 2004) and Defender of Liberty
JU nickname: Grim Xiozan

 

Some Good Philosophical Essays:


Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor by Garrett Hardin, Psychology Today, September 1974 - Link to Essay by Hardin [LINK]
I recommend Hardin's essay be read because Hardin does bring up valid points. 

Ayn Rand Institute Site [LINK] - This section in particular deals with individual rights and is very well done with sound philosophical and logical reasoning.


P.S. If I don't respond that fast my 16 year old dog fell down the stairs yesterday and she dislocated her leg, the Doctors put her under and got the leg back in place but she still is in pain and her back legs are hobbled, she is alright and doing fine just needs time to heal and I need to take care of her from time to time.

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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #1 October 17, 2004 6:25:09 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Bwahahahaha, 1 hour and 40 minutes have passed and yet still no response.
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Grim Xiozan
drmiler
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Reply #2 October 17, 2004 6:41:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I'm sorry to hear about your dog, Grim

For those of you who love/support Bush: Tell me how or what Bush is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!!



To be honest I can't think of one thing.
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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #3 October 17, 2004 7:13:42 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
I'm sorry to hear about your dog, Grim


She's doing alright just a change of pace for her but she is only hobbled for one week than we will see from there, she is also on pain medication.
No worries.

Anyways back on topic, I am also reading about Ayn Rand's view on property and will probably expound on this post further by incorporating the thoughts of individual rights and property as proposed from a consensus of philosophers and my own thoughts as well.
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Reply #4 October 17, 2004 7:22:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I've always had an interest in the Libertarian Party, but I've seen discussions with a few Libertarians that gave me the feeling it was "too" radical. Perhaps they were on the fringe though because I'm not seeing anything unreasonable from any of the Libertarians here. I might give them another shot. They definitely are the only third-party of which I can think that I'd support.
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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #5 October 17, 2004 7:37:59 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Well you will always have representatives of a political party that do not think or act like your typical party member.
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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #6 October 17, 2004 7:41:10 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So why should I listen to you, Grim X?

Don't!


Maybe this is the only part they read, initially, and that's why they didn't resond?
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Reply #7 October 17, 2004 8:09:14 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Maybe this is the only part they read, initially, and that's why they didn't resond?


That is because they hate to look outside of their tunnel vision and any reason no matter how small saying to do the contrary they will take immediately. In other words they will always take the easy way out.

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Reply #8 October 17, 2004 8:17:20 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Or the easy way out via posting a snide comment, eh? ->myself

Unfortunately, I don't really qualify as either group of people that you ask to respond. Technically, I support Bush, as he is the Commander in Chief, and I am a soldier. As for what he has done to "protect Liberty"... there were recent elections in Afghanistan and will be elections next year in Iraq, In Sha' Allah. I think you were looking for something on the homefront, though...
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Reply #9 October 17, 2004 8:36:54 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Well I guess we can count that for something, since it is an action that has defended Liberty albeit the Citizens of other countries, though we could argue over it being right of wrong, but you will not catch me saying it was wrong.

Okay I will count that as one thing (or two) that Bush has done to protect Liberty.
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Reply #10 October 17, 2004 9:03:27 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
For those of you who love/support Kerry: Tell me how or what Kerry is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!! Don't tell me anything about how Bush is going against Liberty, only tell me about Kerry.

For those of you who love/support Bush: Tell me how or what Bush is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!! Don't tell me anything about how Kerry is going against Liberty, only tell me about Bush.


This question assumes that people care about liberty; they don't. Yes, they say they do but words without action have no meaning.
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Reply #11 October 17, 2004 9:08:15 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
So why support them?

As for Bush, pseudosoldier has given one case.
As for Kerry I still have none.

Kerry 0 - Bush 1
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Reply #12 October 17, 2004 9:10:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So why support them?

As for Bush, pseudosoldier has given one case.
As for Kerry I still have none.

Kerry 0 - Bush 1


Can you tell me what you mean by liberty?
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Reply #13 October 17, 2004 9:12:27 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
sandy2 - Did you even GLANCE at his article? Or was this just facetious?
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Reply #14 October 17, 2004 9:14:42 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
it was facetious... but I forgot to complete my thought. anyways.. to continue:

Kerry has stated that he is not in favor of the Patriot Act. HE is against the patriot act. How can you say that is not in favor of the liberty of the american people? HOW.
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Reply #15 October 17, 2004 9:17:28 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Kerry has stated that he is not in favor of the Patriot Act


Well his vote speaks louder than his favor, and also he has stated we need stricter this and stricter that in National Security that also speaks against his favor as well does it not?

Not to mention last thing I heard from him was that we need to reform the Patriot Act but has not said how he will reform it.
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Reply #16 October 17, 2004 9:20:24 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So why support them?


Is this addressed to me? If it is why do you think I support either of them?
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Reply #17 October 17, 2004 9:22:40 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
If you don't support them, who do you support and reasons why your candidate stands for Liberty is all I ASK for.
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Reply #18 October 17, 2004 9:52:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If you don't support them, who do you support and reasons why your candidate stands for Liberty is all I ASK


Bill Maher, but then he isn't a candidate is he?
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Reply #19 October 17, 2004 9:55:55 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Bill Maher, but then he isn't a candidate is he?


Do you really want my answer to your rhetorical question or are you going to at least answer the question posed to begin with?
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Reply #20 October 17, 2004 10:14:20 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
What candidate do I support? None of them.

Who am I voting for? Kerry.

What candidate/party do I trust to protect my liberty? None of them. I don't trust any organization or person to protect my liberty.
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Reply #21 October 17, 2004 10:21:20 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
So why vote for Kerry if you know he does not support Liberty, why?
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Reply #22 October 17, 2004 10:29:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Because I think that overall Bush is worse for our country. Liberty is not my only concern.
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Draginol
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Reply #23 October 17, 2004 10:32:01 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

For me, liberty means having the freedom to do what I want without government interference.

So what has Bush done to protect liberty?

1) Lowered taxes on all tax paying Americans. This gives Americans mroe control over their money.

2) He has pushed for school vouchers so that parents have more freedom of where to send their children to school.

3) He has pushed the most expansive education reform (no child left behind) which requires schools be tested to make sure that they're doing the job they're supposed to do and enable children to go to different schools if their school fails the standards too many times.

4) He has cut down on all kinds of regulations such as various idiotic federal regulations that were creeping into businesses in the 90s such as requiring increasingly small businesses to have their desks and chairs ergonomically correct.

5) His foreign policy has liberated millions of people. Ask a woman in Afghanistan if she has more liberty today than in 2000.

So those are 4 things that I can think of off the top of my head.  Feel free to list something a Democrat has done to make us have more liberty recently. Heck, how about naming somethign John Kerry has done in his entire Senate career in the name of freedom.

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Reply #24 October 17, 2004 10:49:59 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Oh, with Draginol's points, the score is now Bush 6 - Kerry 0. What can't a single Kerry supporter give one point?

I guess if you count Sandy it would still be Bush 6 - Kerry 1, poor showing so far by members of Pro-Kerry crowd.

Because I think that overall Bush is worse for our country. Liberty is not my only concern.

So far you have only given the reason that you dislike Bush as a reason to support Kerry but not a single reason to support Kerry.

Hmm I don't support Bush and I don't support Kerry. Liberty is my main concern because with Liberty everything else will follow.


Since I am holding your prized candidates to the wall I will answer my reasons for Badnarik.

1. He wants to the use of force in defense of an individual rights only against aggression, whether by force or fraud. This right inheres in the individual, who with consent of the individual may be aided by any other individual or group. The right of defense extends to defense against aggressive acts of government.

Screw it I am going to be lazy and paste from the LP site since I need to do something.

2. The Right to Property: There is no conflict between property rights and human rights. Indeed, property rights are the rights of humans with respect to property, and as such, are entitled to the same respect and protection as all other human rights. All rights are inextricably linked with property rights. Such rights as the freedom from involuntary servitude as well as the freedom of speech and the freedom of press are based on self-ownership. Our bodies are our property every bit as much as is justly acquired land or material objects. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of -- or in any manner enjoy -- their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others.

3. The Right to Privacy: The individual's right to privacy, property, and right to speak or not to speak should not be infringed by the government. The government should not use electronic or other means of covert surveillance of an individual's actions or private property without the consent of the owner or occupant. Correspondence, bank and other financial transactions and records, doctors' and lawyers' communications, employment records, and the like should not be open to review by government without the consent of all parties involved in those actions.

4. Internal Security: The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, personal privacy, the freedoms of assembly, expression and religion; and other individual liberties and rights must not be denied on the basis of national security. The Bill of Rights provides no exceptions for a time of war.

More can be found out here: Link
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Reply #25 October 18, 2004 12:22:00 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So far you have only given the reason that you dislike Bush as a reason to support Kerry but not a single reason to support Kerry.


I don't "support" Kerry, I am voting for him. I don't doubt for a second that you understand the distinction.

In regards to property rights I am against the whole concept of land ownership.
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