The Verdict is! » Forum Post by garravesh

I play this game off-line about 90% of the time, and it seems to keep me very entertained.

You probably expected it to be a 4x game, or an RTS. Sorry it didn't meet your expectations - but it's a RT4X.

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I'm sure there will be some 4-x mods soon!

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I'm sure there will be some 4-x mods soon!

It's called Space Empires V.

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The verdict sounds so erm well geez are you a judge lol.

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I play this game off-line about 90% of the time, and it seems to keep me very entertained.You probably expected it to be a 4x game, or an RTS. Sorry it didn't meet your expectations - but it's a RT4X.

I disagree.
Sins is a perfectly normal, slow paced RTS and has very little 4X elements.

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Lets run down the list, shall we?

~Early game exploration phase? Check.

~Early game expansion phase? Check.

~Mid game exploit phase? Check. (Planet Upgrades, Researched Resource Upgrades, Trade Ports, Refineries)

~Game-spanning Extermination Phase? Check.

~Experience? Check

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

~Game-Spanning Empire Building Phase? Check.

~Huge amount of depth? Check.

~Exceptionally long playing time? Check.

~A huge technology tree? Check.

~Plenty of Micromanagement? Check.

~Victory without Extermination? No Check.

~Diplomacy with Non-Teammates? Check.

~Constraints on Growth and Warfare? Check.

~Racial Advantages? Check.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

All they need are new victory conditions in the next few patches, or next expansion, and this game will be a full blown 4X.

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I disagree.
Sins is a perfectly normal, slow paced RTS and has very little 4X elements.

I think he meant to say that the research tree is too small.

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It would be better to mention what it is you didn't like about single player mode. Might be things which people agree on and if enough agree it might be fixed by the developers?

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Lets run down the list, shall we?
~Early game exploration phase? Check.
~Early game expansion phase? Check.
~Mid game exploit phase? Check. (Planet Upgrades, Researched Resource Upgrades, Trade Ports, Refineries)
~Game-spanning Extermination Phase? Check.
~Experience? Check
~Game-Spanning Empire Building Phase? Check.

So far, nothing that you don't get in any RTS game - each planet is basically just an individual base and phase lanes are exactly like the choke points that you get in RTS game maps.

~Huge amount of depth? Check.
~Exceptionally long playing time? Check.

These are not solely indicators of 4X games.

~A huge technology tree? Check.

Sorry? for the length of the game, the technology tree is tiny.

~Plenty of Micromanagement? Check.
~Victory without Extermination? No Check.
~Diplomacy with Non-Teammates? Check.
~Constraints on Growth and Warfare? Check.
~Racial Advantages? Check.

Again, nothing that you don't get in any other RTS.

All they need are new victory conditions in the next few patches, or next expansion,

Yes.

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Not all will like the game. Thank you for your honest opinion

Yes the game is much better for multiplayer.

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Actually, i agree with the OP. Sins multiplayer is cool, sins solo is tutorial.

The AI is (still) way too dumb which makes solo playing completely unfun (and i've beaten 3 HARD agressor AIs second time i played)

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Dairuka, I'm not saying Sins is bad or a "clone RTS", but as mad_axemen pointed out already almost all the points you mention are just as suitable for any of the standard RTS games.
Both game types describe actually somewhat similar gaming concepts.

If you take it word by word even Warcraft 3 or Starcraft are actually 4X games, as even with given maps scouting (exploration) is a big part in any game, and the other three Xs are the core parts of any RTS anyway.

I agree that Sins has some points which are based on 4X concepts that normal RTS games lack, but in the end it is still "deathmatch" type of game. Slow paced compared to the standard RTS games, but still solely focused on the elimination of the opposing forces.

From my experience with the game the comparison of the somewhat similar premises of 4X and RTS place Sins much more on the RTS side.
You may not agree, but I think that advertising Sins as partly 4X is a mistake because this approach arouses expectations which the game cannot fulfill.

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Dairuka, I'm not saying Sins is bad or a "clone RTS", but as mad_axemen pointed out already almost all the points you mention are just as suitable for any of the standard RTS games.Both game types describe actually somewhat similar gaming concepts.If you take it word by word even Warcraft 3 or Starcraft are actually 4X games, as even with given maps scouting (exploration) is a big part in any game, and the other three Xs are the core parts of any RTS anyway.I agree that Sins has some points which are based on 4X concepts that normal RTS games lack, but in the end it is still "deathmatch" type of game. Slow paced compared to the standard RTS games, but still solely focused on the elimination of the opposing forces.From my experience with the game the comparison of the somewhat similar premises of 4X and RTS place Sins much more on the RTS side.You may not agree, but I think that advertising Sins as partly 4X is a mistake because this approach arouses expectations which the game cannot fulfill.

The seriousness of these comments bring me joy and laughter.

You guys have to ask yourself what a 4x Game is, that an RTS game is not?

If you answer "Turn Based", I'll smack you.

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Perhaps you should ask yourself that question.

Is Age of Empires 4X?
Is Heroes of Might and Magic 4X?
Is the Total War series 4X?
Is Age of Wonders 4X?

All these games share strong similarities to traditional 4X games like Master of Orion or Civilization, yet I wouldn't call any of them 4X.

They are based in one "period" and while there are certain tiers of advancement they stay enclosed in that period.
4X games on the other hand try to cover the development over a long period of time (in ingame terms) and bring drastic changes over the course of the virtual development.

4X games cover the development and change of factions, only part of which is conflict with other factions.
RTS games on the other hand focus on a mainly military competition of pretty much unchanging factions.

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lets see, phase lanes being choke points in RTS? wrong. flying units don't have choke points. any other turn based 4x has "phase lanes". or, in your words choke points. tech tree is small. the game is slow. but the game also allows startegy. something i haven't seen since starcraft. and even starcraft lacks on the strategy side. if you want something indepth and massive. check out space empires 5. altho many can even handle that game. i know, i'm in turn 413 and its still a stale-mate between 12 of us. i like sins just fine.

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I play it mostly offline too, because I can just quit when I have to do something, you know, a fast game takes about 2+ hours to finish. I do play online, when I know I will not have anything to do for a few hours.

Oh, and I have to keep saying it, the game is awesome.

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Currently Sins is 98% RTS, 2% 4X. I agree with that sentiment.
If you want an example of a "RT4X" check out the several games that the group Paradox puts out like Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis and Crusader Kings.

Still for what its worth, a decent game. A "diamond in the rough" so-to-speak.

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lets see, phase lanes being choke points in RTS? wrong. flying units don't have choke points. any other turn based 4x has "phase lanes". or, in your words choke points.

You're right, flying units do not have choke points as they can go anywhere on the map. However, the units in Sins cannot travel anywhere on the map are not allowed to travel around without the phase lanes and *have* to use them. This makes the space ships in Sins exactly like ground units in more mainstream RTS's and the phase lanes choke points as it is extremely easy to camp these locations and stop anyone getting through.

tech tree is small. the game is slow. but the game also allows startegy. something i haven't seen since starcraft.

And I just have one comment to say and that is I have yet to see a strategy in Sins that I cannot use in any other RTS either. If someone could enlighten me, that would be great.

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Perhaps you should ask yourself that question.

It is better to understand sometimes, than to be understood always.

Is Age of Empires 4X?Is Heroes of Might and Magic 4X?Is the Total War series 4X?Is Age of Wonders 4X?

Is Civilization 4X?

Is Galactic Civilizations 4X?

All these games share strong similarities to traditional 4X games like Master of Orion or Civilization, yet I wouldn't call any of them 4X.They are based in one "period" and while there are certain tiers of advancement they stay enclosed in that period.4X games on the other hand try to cover the development over a long period of time (in ingame terms) and bring drastic changes over the course of the virtual development.4X games cover the development and change of factions, only part of which is conflict with other factions.

I understand where you're coming from, but all you can really do to explain yourself is by telling me that it doesn't feel the same as a traditional 4X game does.

You've gone so far as to redefine the genre to meet your own unrealistic expectations.

RTS games on the other hand focus on a mainly military competition of pretty much unchanging factions.

I've already freely admitted that Sins of a Solar Empire direly needs different victory conditions.

Yet, you're still missing the point that I was trying to make earlier.

For the sake of ending this debate, I'm going to tell you the answer, before this degenerates any further.

Diplomacy is the answer. All 4x games feature a diverse and complicated diplomacy setup, that changes on a whim, and forces you to adapt your play-style to the changing situation. Sins' diplomacy is much more predictable, and easier to control allowing a more laxed and fixed playstyle - That is the only thing that makes Sins more RTS than 4X.

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One of the things the game would benefit from is, as others have pointed out, an extensive tech tree that would allow the development of a civilization over a couple thousand years. A good tech tree would force some choices as to the direction that each civilization would take (adds more "character"!).

The discussion seems to be pretty much an argument between the RTS crowd that is happy with, as Therlun said, the "deathmatch" RTS style game designed for a fast, evening long war and the strategy crowd that wants a game deep and long enough to offer the opportunity to make strategic and operational choices - lots of "development" (as Woas said, like Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis and Crusader Kings). The game has strong elements of both styles of games. The RTS crowd is happy with the game as it is, but the strategy crowd seems to find the game still lacking. Neither group is going to convince the other to like something different, so I hope the developers can add the elements that will make the strategy group happy. It won't hurt the RTS guys and it will make a lot of other folks happy...me included.

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The discussion seems to be pretty much an argument between the RTS crowd that is happy with, as Therlun said, the "deathmatch" RTS style game designed for a fast, evening long war and the strategy crowd that wants a game deep and long enough to offer the opportunity to make strategic and operational choices (as Woas said, like Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis and Crusader Kings). The game has strong elements of both styles of games. The RTS crowd is happy with the game as it is, but the strategy crowd seems to find the game still lacking. Neither group is going to convince the other to like something different, so I hope the developers can add the elements that will make the strategy group happy. It won't hurt the RTS guys and it will make a lot of other folks happy...me included.

The RTS crowd is not happy. They're pissed off that games take two hours to complete, and that this game isn't a click-fest.

What they, and the 4x crowd fail to realize are the major limitations of a RT4X.

The fact that Sins of a Solar Empire will never make either the RTS Crowd or the 4X crowd happy, proves that it is a RT4X. - An entirely new genre of gaming, filled to the brim with the unrealistic expectations of people who can't see the game as what it is:

Something entirely new.

You have to swallow the game with a grain of salt, if you're ever going to enjoy it.

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For the sake of ending this debate, I'm going to tell you the answer, before this degenerates any further.Diplomacy is the answer. All 4x games feature a diverse and complicated diplomacy setup, that changes on a whim, and forces you to adapt your play-style to the changing situation. Sins' diplomacy is much more predictable, and easier to control allowing a more laxed and fixed playstyle - That is the only thing that makes Sins more RTS than 4X.

Every non-locked multi human player game has way more interesting, more deep and generally simply more diplomacy as the pure technical possibilities of the respective diplomacy engine of any game allows for.
Creating a NAP with an AI which it breaks when a certain threshold of military units is reached is as much a sign of 4X as turn based gameplay is.
Civilization had practically now diplomacy at all. There was only war and temporary cease fire when the AI didnt want to attack you.

To further elaborate my point, since you didnt end the debate itself but at most your participation if you dont continue with it, 4X games have the gaining of completely new abilities at their core, while games like Sins play with a somewhat limited pool of tools so that "martial" decisions become the focus of a game.

I think it is you who simply bought into the RT4X advertisements and changed the meaning of those game classifications to fit your new expectations.

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To further elaborate my point, since you didnt end the debate itself but at most your participation if you dont continue with it, 4X games have the gaining of completely new abilities at their core, while games like Sins play with a somewhat limited pool of tools so that "martial" decisions become the focus of a game.

Technically, any technology tree that doesn't expand indefinitely has a limited pool of tools that force "Martial" decisions - more to the point, the 'new abilities' you speak of, would include the ability to colonize volcanic and ice planets. Wouldn't it? What about the ability to create new tactical structures like phase jump inhibitors or hanger defenses?

How about the acquisition of new abilities and skills for capital ships, through what is otherwise known as the 5th X in 4x games? Experience.

These are all factors in what make Sins of a Solar Empire a 4x game - of course, it's the RTS side that impedes further depth into what makes Sins of a Solar Empire a 4x game. That is why it's not a 4x game, but an RT4x game. Does that make sense? It probably doesn't if you only see black and white.

Hybrids are never as good as the originals, but they sure are different aren't they?

Hybrids also have this nasty habit of becoming better than the originals.

Rock n' Roll started off as a Hybrid once.

I think it is you who simply bought into the RT4X advertisements and changed the meaning of those game classifications to fit your new expectations.

After all that you've read, and after picking my brain of my thoughts and opinions - you actually believe that I was influenced by an advertisement.

Thats more insulting than even the cruelest sentence involving every four letter word known to the English Language.

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