In this morning's lecture, I believe that those of us who attended were all brought to the realization that loyalty to one group automatically means disregarding others. When I used to think of loyalty this perspective of it never came to mind. I never tended to think that there was a good and a bad side of loyalty. I agree with Professor Tatter that the subject of loyalty was the most closely related idea to our class readings. Loyalty to one's race may not be a bad thing; it just depends on how extreme you are in supporting your race and if you go to the extent of thinking of someone else's race as being below you. One of the most definite example of loyalty that I have noticed in Alabama and the southern U.S. in general is a loyalty to religion. Even from an early age, the majority of southerners have a loyalty toward religion. I grew up in Air Force bases throughout Europe until I moved to Alabama when I was seven. The two environments are very different. When we moved to Montgomery, I kept wondering where my friends would go every Wednesday night and Sunday morning. Religion wasn't a heavy influence on base-housing, or in my family. I remember in fifth grade my class got on the subject of religion; and someone asked me what religion I was. I told them I didn't know, and then found them all giving me wierd looks and going silent. Some of them didn't talk to me for the rest of the day. Looking back on it now, it's easy to see that I was on the other side of their loyalty. The loyalty they had towards religion disregarded me for not having one. It is easy to see that when someone with loyalty to one thing meets with someone with loyalty to a conflicting thing there may be conflict between the two people. It all depends on how loyal you are to your own group, and if you exclude or think negatively of other groups. Disregarding someone and excluding someone are very different.

Like Haller, I too was sitting in the back of the auditorium on the floor and was not able to hear everything Dr. Hubb's had to say. The main things he kept mentioning that i continued to pick up on were Gone With the Wind, loyalty, and Greensboro, Alabama. Sadly, i was unable to piece these three ideas to gether so i was a bit lost during his lecture on his writings. In response to Dr. Tatter's question about the loyalty of football fans and their regard to the opponents, I have been around and experienced the disrespect that Alabama fans have toward Auburn and vice versa. If my family heard me yell "ROLL TIDE", they would disown me. I beleieve that the degree of loyalty one person may have and how extreme they are with it basically depends on the individual. One person may go to any extreme to be as disrespectful and rude as possible about whichever football team. If anyone has experience an Auburn v. Alabama game, you know where i am coming from. Both sides of fans get a little ridiculus. I do agree with Haller when she talks about religion. There is a very prominent difference between dissagreement and disrespect towards others beliefs. I am also a Christian. I have been raised in a Christian atmosphere my entire life and I believe that the acknowledgement that Jesus died for our sins and that he is the son of God are the building blocks one needs to be accepted into heaven. This does not mean that i condemn any other religious beliefs, i simply disagree. Heaven may be exclusive, but every one has the choice of whether or not they choose to agree with this belief.

I was in the back of the auditorium as well so I couldn't quite understand the lecture. Dr. Tatter's discussion helped me better understand, though. The comment about loyalty certainly hits close to home. At our highschool, we had an intense rivalry with the other private school in Mobile. We were the Saints and they were the Bulldogs. We thought they were all snobby and elitist. I'm not sure what they thought of us but I'm positive it wasn't very nice. The annual football game set us against even our closest friends at UMS( the "other" school). My brother went there and the rivalry followed us home. It made for some interesting late-night wars. I know that loyalty goes beyond schools and sports. For me, in particular, i am very loyal to my family and get extremely defensive when they are hurt or insulted. The same goes for my church. I am a Catholic Christian, so I am very passionate about the Church. I tend to get defensive when it is insulted. Loyalty has definately been a huge factor in my life growing up. I don't know if it's a Southern thing but, of everything my parents taught me, it is definitely one of the most important lessons.

Throughout the lecture all I could think was, "Greensboro? Tara? Why doesn't Professor Hubbs come to Sand Mountain, Alabama?" I feel like I have grown up in an area that is full of the "old south" sense of community, relationships, and loyalty. We may not have grand plantation style homes with wrap around porches and hundred year old weeping willows in the front yards around every corner, but in that sense of community, relationships, and loyalty, we are distinctively southern...and I have always hated it.

One can look at different streets in my town and, for the most most part, not just tell who lives on that street, but who's FAMILY lives on that street. In some cases the street will even be the sir name of the family. It's eerie in a way. People grow up on Sand Mountain and they have kids. Their kids will come back to live on Sand Mountain and they will have kids. Their kids will grow up...and so on. In most cases, the families (grandparents, kids, grandkids) will end up on the same street or same piece of land because that is how it has always been done. I read last year in my local newspaper about a few older citizens who have never left Sand Mountain. NEVER. This amazed me. I mean yeah, ok, I guess loyalty is a good thing in some cases, but THAT loyal? I could not imagine living a life in which I had never seen a city, ocean, or any other animal besides a cow.

My family, however, is a little different. We are "transplants". My mom was a traveling "city girl", my dad was a corn bread eatin', rockin' chair sitten', cotton pickin', country boy from south Alabama. And somehow we ended up as aliens to this warped universe called Sand Mountain. I don't have grandparents, and the rest of my family is scattered across America. We don't live on "Wilson Road." And I DON'T plan on moving back to Sand Mountain to raise my kids. Wow, my family is weird. We don't "fit in" with the rest of my community. I don't fit in, I guess like Gretchen didn't fit in in our story today. (Except I'm not a disturbed child that throws things in toilets and chases her imaginary enemy.) During an interveiw for a county wide leadership program when I was asked the question, "Do you plan to return to Sand Mountain after college?" I was criticized for answering "No." So I kind-of "get" the whole southern community concept... and being excluded from it.

As far as being loyal, what stuck with me after the forum was one of the things Professor Hubbs said about loyalty. "Inclusion and exclusion...the dark side of loyalties." We can't be loyal to everyone. I guess I am a naive idealist, but I always thought you could be loyal to everyone. You can't. Like Dr. Hubbs, and Dr. Tatter both touched on, having a loyalty to one group means you can't be loyal to another group. I thought your questions were interesting, Dr. Tatter, about one's loyalty to their faith and heaven being an exclusive community. Although I have been taught the concept of "Heaven and Hell" my entire life, and as a Christian I should believe it, I really have a hard time doing so. I want to believe that everyone's faith is the "right one." I have a really hard time believing that my Hindu friends are going to Hell. I'm sure some think that I am not loyal to my Christian faith because I can't believe that mine is the only religion that is right. I just don't like the idea that Heaven is exclusive. I know I should believe that Heaven is exclusive, but I can't. I like to think of my God as a loving and merciful God, not a scary, fire throwing, damning God.

Wow. I'm sorry I wrote so much. I hope I made some sense. Props to those of you who read this after seeing how long it was;). I hope everyone has a good weekend!

I agree with what Jessica Dunn said about how she always thought that the civil war was like Gone With the Wind. It's funny how we allow ourselves to really believe what a movie would portray for a war, when we know that movies are not reality. I enjoyed the lecture by Professor Hubbs', and I agree with him about how a community can get clicky. I am not saying that I agree with the way that the Greensboro community handled outsiders, I just agree with how they became a "community". I loved the part when Professor Hubbs' talked about a community not being a community with out relationships between neighbors. Especially now a days, when no one knows their neighbors. I think it is simplie because we are totally consumed with all the things that we have to do and don't have the time to meet people.
The reason why I can see why the people of Greensboro were such a tight woven community is because they all believed in the same thing. Just like when you are finding your best friend in first grade, you find the person who is most like you. I have always had better relationships with people who believed in the same values that I did. The reason why no one will let the outsider into their community is because they do not want change. Change causes people to have to adjust and if the community is doing well, why change it. No, they did not go about the best means of asking people to leave, but they were still trying to protect themselves from the outside war. When I lived in Gulfport, MS my grandfather was the priest at my church and so we knew everybody. We all had the same religious beliefs and felt comfortable around each other. When I moved to Birmingham it was a hard change for my family because our comfort zone was gone. We didn't know anybody and when we would go to find another church, the people there were close, which made us feel left out. You don't go to a place that you don't feel welcome. I don't know why people even attempted to go to Greensboro if they met the people and knew they weren't wanted.
In regard to loyalty I would have to say that according to professor Hubbs, to be completely loyal to anything you would have to shut other things or people out of your life. Like football, I am an Alabama fan, so for me to be loyal I would have to dislike every other team that played Bama. My parents have always taught me to be open minded and not to close off possibilities, which makes it hard for me to really believe in this type of loyalty. One thing that I do get heated up about is religion and politics. There are people in this world today that truly believe that their religion is completly right, and that everyone else is going to hell. I don't care what religion a person is because that shouldn't matter. I guess it is just like the people in Greenboro because they are one sided. It is there way and no other way. That whole idea seems so stubborn and ignorent. At my church people are allowed to come as they please. Of course it is going to be a little exclusive to those who believe in our beliefs, only because others would normally not come. I do think that all religions are equal because they are all beliefs in some type of higher being. I think heaven will be filled with a lot of people, because God forgives people for their sins, as long as they want him to. I don't think God wants people to go to hell only when they do something very bad and don't ask him for forgivness.
I grew up in a small neighborhood where everyone was pretty close. Our neighborhood was not exclusive as much as the parents where with in the neighborhood. All the old people were in a group, then the people with older children, then with younger children, and etc. My parents had a group of people they would have parties with and spend time with because they had children around the same age. One lady that was crazy lived across the street and everyone couldn't stand her. She would give all of us kids Chocolate and ruin our dinners. I didn't know any better, but my mom really didn't like the lady.
Nosey neighbors are those who have nothing else better to do with their time. My neighbor now, is very sweet but has way to much time on her hands. She reports to my parents anytime I come home and how long I stayed and with who. It is like she has a permanent camera filming my house. She tends to report people to the police, if she doesn't like them, if they let their dogs run in her yard, or if they don't look like they live in our neighborhood. That sounds awful but you don't want strange people walking around that don't live there. They could be planning on stealing all of your stuff when you leave on a trip for Christmas.

I was very interested in Dr. Hubb's lecture but I was in the back and couldn't hear very well. However, I really enjoyed what I did hear. I had never really heard anyone actually speak on southern distinctiveness. I think that everyone groups up knowing that there is a difference between the North and the South. I think that the stereotypes come mostly from TV and movies and things like that but I had never heard anyone actually try to explain why and how those stereotypes came about.
I to believe the loyalty Dr. Hubbs spoke of is still prevelant today, however in different froms than it was back during the Civil War. To me loyalty means sticking up for and standing beside someone, place, or thing no matter what. For example, I believe that I am a very loyal friend because I am always there when my friends need me and if someone else tries to put them down I stand up for them. Now in my community loyalty is a different thing. I live in the big community of Shelby County, Alabama. It's made up of mostly well-to-do families whose husbands play golf and wifes are soccer and tennis moms. We belonged to a country club and enjoyed all of the benifits of that life. Loyalty in that kind of atmosphere appeared in many different forms. There was political loyalty where people tryed to vote to do what was best for our county. There was club loyalty where if you were a member at Heatherwood you only played golf and tennis there and you played a lot. And then where was loyalty between schools. The area I live in is expanding very rapidly and so there are many high schools. I was the president of my class at Oak Mountain so my job was to inspire loyalty or "school spirit" in my class. It was not an easy job and it was mostly accomplished during homecoming week when we were actually competing. Loyalty in that case involved cheering, dressing silly, and supporting our school and grade. Now if I expand to larger schools that brings me to Alabama and Auburn football. One of the oldest riverlies in Alabama. Some people go to the extreme in their loyalty to their team but I prefer to take a much more passive approach to football. I am an Alabama fan but I don't put down Auburn or Auburn fans, it's their choice who they want to cheer for an I wont try to sway them, even if I think they are wrong. This kind of loyalty can be extremely fierce in Alamaba and it can bring out the best and worst in people. My opinion of Greek organizations is kind of the same. Just because your a member of one doesn't mean you have to hate the others. I am very loyal to my soriety but that doesn't mean that I don't like the other ones. I don't have any problems with them, they are just different. Kind of like the North and South most Southerners don't have a problem with people who live in the North they are just different. I think that you can be loyal to one without hating the other.

I have mostly thought of loyalty as an honorable trait; a trait to be admired. However, the exclusive nature of the loyalty that Dr. Hubbs spoke about was not admirable at all. The community spirit and support associated with loyalty are positive results, but when loyalty is taken too far and based upon discrimination, rejection, or extreme competition these positive results are overshadowed by their negative counterparts.

I have, like may others who have posted, felt excluded at various schools I have attend because I wasn’t there when everyone was playing with play-do in preschool, or at their roller-skating birthday parties every year since second grade. When I was younger I used to wish that I had never moved, that I had lived in the same house all my life so that I could share those memories and be part of those friendships. Instead, I moved often during my childhood; I even attended three high schools. The last high school I went to was by far the smallest and I noticed the exclusive loyalty of that particular school more than any other I had attended. Most of the people there had been together since kindergarten, and their parents had been friends almost as long as they had been alive. In the beginning, I often felt left out, like I was missing something, whenever I hung out with them. I never knew the stories they brought up, and if it asked to hear them to understand they would dismiss me, saying that it didn’t matter. When disagreements happened I was always in the wrong; if I had been there long enough I would have known better than to do whatever I did that they considered unacceptable.

After I had been at the school for awhile and began to feel more comfortable I realized I was acting with the same warped loyalty that had excluded me. When a new student moved in my senior year, I found myself leaving him out or ignoring him just because he wasn’t like us, because he hadn’t been there. Once I realized what I was doing however, I made an effort to befriend him and made a really good friend who I would have never noticed if I had kept my “exclusive” loyalties.

The first image that comes to my mind when I think about loyalty, or loyalty to a cause, is in the context of nationality. As American citizens, we share in the "pride and prosperity" of our country, and are taught to be proud to be Americans. America is seen as a community through its common language, common ancestral background, and often common moral principles as well. We agree to the concepts of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are all subjected to the American Dream, our image of success and happiness in society, whether we realize it or not. We all want to go to college to be successful in the "real world," and a good education is valued by nearly everyone. These all encompass the American community on a more individual level, but America often stands for so much more.

On a more global scale, Americans are often regarded as the beacon of light to the rest of the world. Our capitalist free market is a model to developing economies, and our successful economy is one of the worlds wealthiest. Everyone loves our pop music, our movies, and our clothing. These might not always be the most positive, though, and while they sound great in theory when spoken of with such a positive spin, there is also a down side. There are some aspects of America I don't care to associate myself with.

For example, when I went overseas (I spent my junior year of high school as an exchange student to the Netherlands), I went over with a different view of being American. I was proud of my family, and to an extent, my hometown, my school, etc, but I shied away from being called American. Where most people might proudly announce they were American, I would try to avoid it. Was I not proud of my country? Yes, I was... to an extent. Was I being disloyal? Probably. What I saw as being American at home was very different from being American overseas. Part of my reluctance to admit my nationality was the fear of being labeled like all the other American tourists, which I tried to avoid like the plague. Americans do not always have the rosiest reputations in foreign countries, and I did not want to be seen as "another one of those Americans." I was different from them: I spoke the language, was conscientious of world issues, and knew my geography like the back of my hand. Why then all this fear?

This experience taught me a valuable lesson in loyalty. Nationalistic sentiment is easy to have in your home country. In America, where I was in my safe community of Americans who were more or less like me, agreed with me, and shared similar backgrounds, loyalty was a given; loyalty came naturally in such a group. However, when placed in a group where I was the only one with such loyalties, I quickly saw my loyalties change. I kept my nationality, but I questioned America and its values. I was not proud of our portrayal as the commercial nation we seem to have become. Chain stores were rampant, and I was disgusted by some of the "globalization," as nearly every downtown center became oddly the same with their similar clothing chains, etc. Was this what it meant to be American? To shop at all these stores, wear these clothes, go to see these movies, and have these kinds of "Friends"? I quickly seemed to become a traitor to the cause. Anything that would keep people from labeling me solely as "American," and I don't mean simply as my nationality.

I still find loyalty to be a very tricky topic. Was I wrong to abandon certain "loyalties" I held as an American? Should I be labeled a traitor? Maybe it was simply a discovery that certain loyalties aren't worth keeping, and it took a step outside the American borders to realize some of those. As I mentioned already, loyalty within a friendly environment is easy, but loyalty in the face of adversity is very different. Where our loyalties lie, or who they are with, form a very important aspect of who we are as people. If we are defined by our loyalties, though, I might carefully consider the next time I claim loyalty to any sort of community or group, and though I support loyal patriots, we too must avoid allowing our loyalties to impede the path of better understanding and greater community.

I thought Professor Hubbs' lecture was interesting because I have never thought of loyalty as being an almost negative thing. I've always though of loyalty as an admirable trait and I guess I never really thought about the fact that it can make us exclude or discrimminate against others. I think that a lot of times groups, or communities, reject people with loyalties opposite theirs out of fear. A community that supported the Confederacy would not welcome a person who didn't for fear that this person would try to interfere with their beliefs or other things. Also, a lot of people are born into loyalties. If a person is brought up an Auburn fan or brought up a Methodist, then that's all they know. Befriending someone with different loyalties could influence your own, which can be frightening.
As far as the issue with Alabama and Auburn fans goes, the more ignorant or intoxicated fans are usually the most disrespectful and there are just as many horrible Auburn fans as there are horrible Alabama fans. I think the level of discrimmination depends more on the individual than the group they are loyal to.

[I love the stream of consciousness style of writing... and sometimes it is hard to follow. And, for that, I am sorry.]

Loyalty. I had never really thought about the groups I am loyal to... Christians, Alabama fans, the members of my neighborhood and community. In my neighborhood, we aren’t exactly the Mountain Brook of Alabama but we are of where I live. We have no sidewalks and people are always gathering around to compare the bank statements of the other members of the community. And, I guess that is where my family does not exactly fit in. We are probably the poorest of all the other families. My dad is no CEO or rich cardiac surgeon and he certainly did not start his own multimillion dollar company. Simply, he is a dentist and my mom is an administrative supervisor. Not horrible jobs, not horrible money, but, in our neighborhood, we are the people that do not have the house that can beat the Jones’ [However, our house could resemble the guest house or something.] I guess what I am trying to say is that my family, although we have loyalty to our community, is not exactly completely accepted. So, therefore, being rejected by a community I am loyal to, I can understand the darkside of loyalty.

As far as the exclusive nature of loyalty, I had never really entertained the idea of loyalty having a negative connotation. Rather, I thought one should have pride in the groups that they were loyalty. Now I have started to question whether I should be loyal to any group. All of them are exclusive and all create hostility amongst rival groups. But then again, if we are all not divided into the groups with other like-minded people, our ideas could eventually fade away. However, in the same token, loyalty and group-forming in a society creates the ability for questioning to eventually disappear. For, if someone is continually around other individuals that are just like them, it makes it hard to question those ideals. I do not really know where I am going with all of this...

Is it bad for me to be loyal to my fellow Christians? Christianity, by nature, excludes certain people - those that do not believe that God the Father sent His only son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross and wash away our sins with His blood. And, it is through this act, that we, the sinners, have the opportunity to have faith and believe in Him and, consequentially, can receive the gift of eternal life. That is the only way according to the Bible and therefore we believe that we are the only ones that will enter Heaven. Exclusive? Yes. Right? Well, I think so. But am I wrong in being loyal to them? I am not so sure now...

I enjoyed Professor Hubbs' lecture on "The Origin of Southern Distinctiveness." I found it interesting that he mentioned that the Old South lacked communities because it had few tools to build communities. I had never thought about the tools that it takes to build a community. I suppose it would be hard for one to form relationships with the selfish "autonomous individualists" filling the Old South. With only the one-sided interests of their neighbors, members of that era would find it difficult to cultivate meaningful relationships and share common interests. Without these tools, a community cannot be formed. Dr. Hubbs said that the thinking of the agriculturalists followed these lines: "I came here to make money." While this statement parallels the "survival of the fittest" mentality, this thinking resembles the mental drive of our present society members. Dr. Hubbs also made another point that the drive for riches leaves no room for attachment. This likewise is reflected in today's urban society. This thought led me down a road to question whether or not we have stable communities in today's world. We have religious communities, scholarly communities, and interest groups. I suppose that the existence of communities is not threatened because we have greater access to communication tools. Instead of being limited to our surrounding neighbors to form a community, we can now use means of long-distance communication to bridge together members from around the nation and around the world to form our own communities.

Dr. Hubbs also said that communities are forged out of necessity. The people of Greensboro and other Southern towns banded together to form religious organizations, fraternal groups to establish credit, reform societies, and agricultural improvement societies. However, one of the most important alliance was the militia who came together to protect the white population from slave rebellions. These men shared a sense of purpose and a common drive to protect their families and homes. I found it interesting that it was this premature bonding that evolved into the Confederate army--a community also forged out of necessity to protect men's families and homes.

Dr. Hubbs' discussion of the term "loyalty" also sparked my interest. By committing oneself to the cause and defense of a community, one knowingly or unintentionally commits oneself antagonistically towards another community. By mentioning this exclusion principle, Dr. Hubbs brought up a very intersting topic for me to ponder. How have I excluded others? I have always discouraged clique forming, but I must admit to shuning some people. If I exculed anyone, it tended to be because of other's morals or value systems and their religious background. Because religion is the most important aspect of my (as Dr. Tatter likes to describe it--) "multi-dimentional personality," I sometimes "diminish a complex individual" into categories of religion, denomination, or doctrinal stance. My loyalty to my own convictions, interpretations, and beliefs can even become contradictory toward my view of loving the people around me. The irony of this thought impacts me with full force. Even though I strongly argue for kindness and charity toward all, if I allow my stance on issues to segregate those with opposite views, I am being discriminatory. This is what impacted me about Dr. Hubbs' discussion about loyalty.

The thing that was most interesting to me about Dr. Hubbs lecture was not anything he literally said, but instead, it was a realization that came to me after listening to it. I have always seen southern predjudice as an issue between white people and african-americans. Granted, this issue is at the forefront of predjudice issues the majority of the time, but I realized while reflecting on what i had heard that "southern racism" is not limited to the colors of our skin. The main point that I took away from the lecture was that everywhere, but especially here in the south, people of all colors are excluded and persecuted for various reasons. Growing up in what i would consider the deep south, I have been taught that a man's word is all that he has, therefore loyalty and pride are two values of the highest importance. Although I believe that this is completely true, and that loyalty and pride in one's community is what makes the south a great place; I also understand now that these same values that hold us so closely together can be the very things that tear us apart. This can be proven by observing a subject as simple as a football game. It is a well-known fact that on the last Saturday in November, there are no "I don't really care who wins" aloud. On that day, you choose who to be loyal to, Auburn or Alabama. For those four hours, families are split and loyalty reigns supreme. You can observe the same situation when you look at churches with different denominations or religious beliefs. The attitude taken by most churches is that "I am right and you are wrong, and if you don't agree with us, then you don't belong here." I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this viewpoint, because truthfully the religion that I follow take this outlook on things. I am only saying that by doing this, the people who do not believe as you do are excluded, and in a sense, persecuted. I do not believe that Dr. Hubb's lecture was an attempt to imply that the south is wrong for being the way that it is. I believe that he was only bringing the issue to our attention and stating that whether or not we want to admit the problem is there. I guess the lesson I took away from the lecture was to examine the ideals and morales that you consider to be strong and right, at all cost, and realize that although some things seem to be very good at first glance, they can also be the very things that completely destroy us.