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Dr Guy

Join Date 09/2004

+129

A living Wage?

You be the First to support it

Many in this forum have talked about how there should be a 'living wage', or an increase in the minimum wage. They expound on the noble virtues that would accompany such a government mandated porgram. (Government mandated since none who promote it seem to own businesses, and therefore cannot implement it themselves).

For those who still fail to grasp economics 101, I have a 3 part test.

#1: 2 boys come by your house and offer to cut your yard. One wants $10, the other one wants $20. Who do you hire?

#2: The government has decided that lawn cutting is worth $50. Do you:

A: pay a boy in the neighborhood to cut it and pay him $50
B: Hire the son of your housekeeper, an illegal alien who cannot complain to the government, to do it for $20
C: Cut it yourself.

#3: The government has decreed a minimum wage of $10/hr so that everyone has a living wage. Store #1 has work gloves made in the USA for $75, made by someone earning a living wage. Store #2 has the same gloves, the same quality for $25 because they were made in Mexico. Which pair do you buy?

Now before flippantly answering these questions, I suggest you check your history.

Answer truthfully. And then compare your answers to your rhetoric. Maybe you like to preach "do as I say, not as I do". I have yet to find anyone who can pass this test who supports a living wage or a radical increase in the minimum wage.

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You know what? My husband and I are not wealthy by any means, but we always pay others well. I have a neighbor kid who comes around asking to mow the lawn . . . she tells me she likes to do it and doesn't need to be paid . . . I still pay her $5 (I have a very small yard), and then I ask her to mow my next door neighbor's front yard too and give her an extra $2 - 3. When I get pizza delivered, I give a tip. When I have my groceries carried out to my minivan, I give a tip. When I had my computer fixed, I gave a tip. I am willing to pay others well for the services they provide for me and my family.

I can understand and appreciate your argument against a living wage. However, I make personal sacrifices (monetary and otherwise) for the benefit of others on a daily basis. I am not asking anyone to "do as I say and not as I do." Most of us are hypocrites in one way or another, but I don't think it's fair to assert that none of those who would support a living wage are not in the position to, or willing to, behave in a manner that supports their beliefs.

Good post.

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1. $10

2. C

3. USA (otoh, I know I am in the minority on this. The average person shops at WalMart much more often than me.)

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

Most of us are hypocrites in one way or another, but I don't think it's fair to assert that none of those who would support a living wage are not in the position to, or willing to, behave in a manner that supports their beliefs.

Too true.

To answer your questions:

1: $20 (paying one kid $10 will mean he/she'll do a typical job; by paying $20 I can use the threat of going to the cheaper kid to get better service and would probably get a good job anyway)
2: let the grass grow free. I'm not paying 5 times/ 2.5 times as much to get the same job (note that minimum wage activists aren't asking for that either)
3: I'd buy the Mexican ones because I'd prefer to support struggling Mexican workers than struggling Americans - the US is big and strong and can look after its unemployed. Mexico can't.

NB: I haven't been flippant here. This is my normal thought process. I'll almost always pay a bit above the normal, accepted price for something in order to get a better job or to reward someone who I think is a good person. And I'm not an American so I'm not going to pay more for American goods - Australian goods yes, but not American.

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The examples you give are totally over the top.

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all horseshit.the world is run on false economies.

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The problem here, at least with consumer goods, is this...

If it is a choice of manufacturing a product in the United States at a higher price, or another country at a lower price, you will hardly see a noticable difference in price at purchase time. Why? Because most companies would just charge the same amount to the consumer and keep the extra money as profit (or perhaps sell it for 5% less than the competitor and still take a healthy profit). The idea is to reduce cost to the company, not total dollars of income. In any case, my answers:

1.) I'd pay the $20 kid, because I'd probably get better service or more detail work out of him.

2.) Well, since I'm advocating child labour by having a child cut my lawn, I hardly think this is relevant, because I'm too cheap to hire a professional gardener to do it for me. I'd just have *my* kids mow the lawn for free.

3.) See above.

-- B

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Community by community living wage laws are passing. The people are choosing them. Living wages are not picked by and forced by the government and will vary from area to area. The living wage for Mt. Vernon Ohio will be different than for Santa Rosa California. Yes, I will stand behind my convictions and give a living wage.
http://jim-wisefawn.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=25169 Link

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#1 - #2 Your options seem very incomplete...why not hire them both to switch off every time it needed to be mowed? Or hire one to mow your lawn and tell the other he could clear the sidewalk and driveway of snow in the winter? And how in the hell would the government decide what lawn mowing is worth $50? Just because it's a hypothetical scenario doesn't mean it should be completely unbelievable. Since I would be the personal employer I'd have no problem making a personal assessment of who was in more need of the money as well. If one of the boys was rich and was looking for some extra cash and one would be actually using the money to add to the family grocery fund then my choice would be fairly obvious.

#3 - If I felt I could afford them I would purchase the $75 gloves, but because I myself have not always made a living wage I am financially struggling and if I had to have them I'd buy the cheaper pair.

My real scenario: coffee is a great luxury and as such I have committed myself to purchasing fair trade coffee. I could easily buy the same quality coffee for much less, usually about 50% less per pound. Yes, there are many things where I will buy the cheaper product...but I will not shop at Wal-mart and I try to buy American products, particularly from small businesses whenever I can.

Living Wage Defense:
My father will tell you he is a very conservative man and he and I have always been the most vocal in our family when it comes to political issues like this. Though we generally disagree, my father has accepted that a Living Wage can be interpreted many different ways, some of which may even be acceptable to conservatives. Do 16 year olds need to make a "living wage?" probably not? Maybe there should be a wage higher rate that one receives as long as they are a full-time student in college. Living Wage could be something that someone applies for just like TANF or other assistance program. I'd still contend that Congress should be prohibited from increasing their own wages unless they are increasing the minimum wage at the same time...how can they claim that they need more money (over $150,000/yr) and the rest of the country doesn't? It sickens me.

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If we want to compete in a global economy we need to redefine the term "living wage". I fail to understand how a politician can promise to create more jobs at home while increasing the huge wage gap that already exists between us and many other nations. Businesses will only have more reason to go out-of-country. Oh, and penalizing businesses for hiring foreign workers is not a solution - for those of you that subscribe to the Kerry fix.

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1) I'd pay $20 if the service was better. However, if it was almost identical, I don't think anybody except a liar would pay for the $20 kid.

2) Do it myself.

3) Unless the American version was fashionable (i.e. brandnames), I'd go with the Mexican one. I like to support American made, but not when it's much more expensive thant he alternative.

2: let the grass grow free. I'm not paying 5 times/ 2.5 times as much to get the same job (note that minimum wage activists aren't asking for that either)

I"m not sure. Some people actually insist that the minimum wage should be able to support a family of four, which would at least double it. Besides, this is about a living wage. Same with cologne.

Why would anybody pay two people to do one job?

And how in the hell would the government decide what lawn mowing is worth $50? Just because it's a hypothetical scenario doesn't mean it should be completely unbelievable.

Because. It'd have to be enough so that somebody could support a family of four. There was a huge talk on how the minimum wage should be do that, so a living wage should be able to as well.

Since I would be the personal employer I'd have no problem making a personal assessment of who was in more need of the money as well.

Many disagree and believe the government should force companies to pay people what they feel is fair despite the ramifications.

If one of the boys was rich and was looking for some extra cash and one would be actually using the money to add to the family grocery fund then my choice would be fairly obvious.

If we want to get into details, it's also possible the child that is going to use it for food does a complete half-ass job while the other one pays attention to detail.

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The examples you give are totally over the top.

I don't think so. Recently I had the choice of buying shoes made in Italy vs. shoes made in China. They seemed to be of comparable quality, but the shoes made in Italy were twice as expensive.

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I think the relevent question though is, "How much more are YOU willing to pay for (insert item here) to have it made with a living wage?"

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I think the relevent question though is, "How much more are YOU willing to pay for (insert item here) to have it made with a living wage?"

You make it sound that the economic history of this country just started with outsourcing.

Because most companies would just charge the same amount to the consumer and keep the extra money as profit (or perhaps sell it for 5% less than the competitor and still take a healthy profit).

Yes, the issue is not living as much as profiteering.

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Yes, the issue is not living as much as profiteering.

If businesses are not profiting, are they going to be able to stay in business?

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Yes, the issue is not living as much as profiteering.

If businesses are not profiting, are they going to stay in business?

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Your article makes a valid point.
A bit extreme, but never the less it made sense.

I believe that if each of us does a little, no one has to really hurt themselves.

Zippo Lighters, Harley Davison Motor Cylces, Craftman Tools, and anything else that I can find American.
Don't shop at Wal-Mart either.
I don't buy Levi's any more either.

No, I don't belong to a union but can understand their purpose.
Sorry, I'm a white collar guy.

Always give 15% tip even when service is poor. Go higher then 20% when service is exceptional.

Don't need a BMW, as I believe a Corvette fits me just fine. My Winter car is also American and most of the parts are made here in the U.S.
Yes, I buy imported merchandise. Can't help it.

Would I pay you a litte more at your business because workers wages have increased? Yes! Probably!
Don't mean to push my beliefs on anyone else, that is just how I live.
Everyone has their own conscience and moral standards.

Do I go to church every Sunday? No!
But I do, sometimes.

Good article though.

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Everyone has a moral conscience about a living wage, but not a common sense viewpoint.

Helix, the problem here is that not all people share the same perception of what 'common sense' is. One person's common sense may be based on economic theory, another's on a perceived moral high ground. It would be nice if we could discuss these differences of opinion, rather than just finger pointing.

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I don't like the term "living wage". If you make minimum wage, you make enough to provide yourself with shelter, food, and water.

If people who complain that they aren't making a "living wage" want enough money to buy a nice house, car, and a widescreen tv....then they should have spent more time in school or spent more time building specialized job skills.

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If you make minimum wage, you make enough to provide yourself with shelter, food, and water.

That's a pretty broad statement . . . it's also false. While you could argue that *most* people who make minimum wage can provide themselves with food, shelter, and water (just like what an animal needs! woohoo!), it is clear that not everyone can. What do suggest for those people?

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People in the USA are spoiled. Hell, I'm spoiled. I want my internet, my air-conditioning, my cruise control car, my newspaper delivered, my cable, and I'd have a hell of a time living on a minimum wage. But if I can only obtain a job paying minimum wage, then thats what I get. I should have gotten a better education. You can live on minimum wage. You don't need a car unless you live in detroit, you don't need a house, you don't need a newspaper or even a TV. You can eat bread and milk and instead of spending money on cigs spend it on investing.

I would pay the lower cost kid the money to cut my lawn, although more likley I would hire a lawn service, I would cut the grass myself in the second instance and I would buy the mexican glove. Outsourcing is good people, having cheaper products helps the economy more than it hurts to loose a thousand jobs.

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Why would anybody pay two people to do one job?

For God's sake we're talking about getting the fucking lawn mowed here...not a 9-5 factory job. Why do parents pay their children an allowance to make their beds and set the table at dinner...because they can and they want to teach them some responsibility. I'm not going to hire a 35 year old to mow my lawn from a professional service...I'd hire some kid to increase some community connection in my neighborhood.

Because. It'd have to be enough so that somebody could support a family of four. There was a huge talk on how the minimum wage should be do that, so a living wage should be able to as well.

Source? I think most people here who support a living wage think that's pretty rediculous...are we talking about a single income or two? And what of the limitations I suggested?

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No, I don't belong to a union but can understand their purpose.

I could understand their purpose 100 years ago. Now, however, the union has become as much a monster as big business and needs to be eliminated.

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Unions cause trouble, but they are needed. I wish we could limit them though. We need a balance of business and union. Now the unions are too powerfull. Teachers shouldn't, for example, have tenure.

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Wait a minute guys, you're only focusing on what big businesses or stuff like that could pay. Think about small businesses who are struggling to even make it with all these big chains taking over. You think they can afford to pay huge wages to workers whose only jobs are to sweep the floor and shelve items? No way! If the minimum wage were raised enough to be a "living wage", small businesses as we know them would cease to exist. They just couldn't afford it. Or they'd have to force their kids to work there, or they'd fire half their employees. The unemployment rate would SKYROCKET because small and medium sized businesses wouldn't be able to pay that many workers that much. Then, yeah, some people who normally wouldn't would be getting a living wage, but hundreds of thousands more would be completely out of work and earning NO wages, except what they can receive from welfare. Yes. That's EXACTLY what we need. More unemployment and more welfare recepients. Living wage = bad idea.

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So the problem you have is with the analogy and not the point of it?

Source? I think most people here who support a living wage think that's pretty rediculous...are we talking about a single income or two? And what of the limitations I suggested?

That's not the impression I received from supporters of raising the minimum wage and/or the living wage in the Ownership Myth article.

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