Fahrenheit and Fahrenhype 9/11 » Forum Post by ShoZan

kingbee

Join Date 04/2004

+42

to get out of service and lie about the Military is wrong completely

heres a link Link to the entire unexpurgated, unabridged testimony offered by kerry to the senate committee in 1971.

please read it and identify the lies

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Shozan,

The bottom line is that I responded to your post that was an echo of so many ( predominately Republican) critiques of Michael Moore.

What they usually say is that he's fat. Then , most say he's a liar even though they have never seen the film . Some say he's a liar even though they haven't seen ANY of his films. All they could come up with is that he's fat , same as you .

Then , you felt bad, and changed your post . I must have done something right.

I will probably have to do my own post on Moore - because I have seen all 3 of his films. Farenheit 9/11 is so well put together that it deserves every award it has , and will get. It's funny , it's thought provoking , and it's very touching. You keep judging it and you haven't seen it. Moore could have added so much more , like Bushisms , but he knew what to focus on. We'll have to leave Bushism's to the Presidential blooper videos. Bush has enough for about 7 volumes!

As I've said, Michael Moore's family worked for GM, and he watched as his community crumbled around him ( Roger and Me ). He could have just said nothing , but he didn't.
He went looking for answers. It's a must see. It was a brave thing for him to do.

Funny thing is: Most of the things that people say about Moore ( without seeing the films ) are lies. He loves to be on camera ( not true, he lets others speak for him ).

He twists the words of those he interviews to get what he wants. Untrue. He usually lets the interviewee do the talking , and that's what gets the attention.

Did you know that there was a Hospital patient who's HMO denied an operation for? Michael Moore promised the person that they would get the operation.
And Moore took his cameras with him , and asked why they were denying this person an operation. The patient got the operation.

To those who talk about Bin Laden on these posts as if Moore loves him : Moore documents in 9/11 that the Bush family and the Bin Laden family have been friends
for years, even partners. This is common knowledge that most republicans do not want to bring up. The Taliban visited Bush in Texas.

There's even more for you to see in that film , and his others. Most people view Moore's attempts as a caring, patriotic American . I certainly do - if you even see a glimpse of what Flint Michigan looks like today ( it looks like a war zone ) I'm sure you wouldn't want to live there !

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Chasing George W. Bush and the F-102
A piece that got this started.

What he's like in real life.
by Paul Burka

Link

Includes Documents as well.

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Reply #51 By: kingbee - 9/15/2004 6:01:46 AM
to get out of service and lie about the Military is wrong completely

heres a link Link to the entire unexpurgated, unabridged testimony offered by kerry to the senate committee in 1971.

please read it and identify the lies

For starters here's one:

What Was Found and Learned in Vietnam
We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our

It was "no" civil war but rather communism trying to take over!

Here's another:

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of Orientals.

A free-fire zone does NOT mean shooting anything that moves. ALL it means is that you don't have to call and get permission to open fire.
And believe me the list goes on! If you'd like I'll sit down and tear the rest of it apart! BTW I know this has been said before but it bears repeating!
When "loose lips" came home he "gave" the VC AND the NVA exactly what our POWS (under torture) were trying to prevent. Also That meeting in Paris? That my friend was a TREASONOUS act!
He was STILL an officer in the US NAVY at the time.

To quote Stan Lee "Nuff Said!"

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Point:

heres a link Link to the entire unexpurgated, unabridged testimony offered by kerry to the senate committee in 1971.

please read it and identify the lies

Yes I read it.

Counterpoint:
Miami Vietnam veteran attacks Kerry's anti-war statements [LINK] it's from an officer as well.

History of the Vietnam War 101 [LINK] An on-line discussion forum on the history of the war in Vietnam Presented by Edwin Moise, Ph.D

To those who talk about Bin Laden on these posts as if Moore loves him : Moore documents in 9/11 that the Bush family and the Bin Laden family have been friends
for years, even partners. This is common knowledge that most republicans do not want to bring up. The Taliban visited Bush in Texas.

You know I read the information on that, and it was a loose connection through the Carlyle Group, and that also you have to remember the Bin Laden family disowned Usama Bin Laden, which being disowned from a family is a more powerful statement in the Arab world than the US (like being Shunned by the Amish Powerful). Plus the business relationship took place before the American Public or the Business knew how much of threat Usama was, heck we thought we were safe from Terror attacks, but what happened we did not expect. Though after reading 'Bear and the Dragon’ (?) by Tom Clancy, I thought about the possibility of somebody using a plane to destroy an American building, in the case of the book Terrorist crashed a plane into Capitol Hill during a State of the Union Address, was more of threat than I realized because it COULD happen, and it DID happen.

As for saying Mikey is fat, well that's a no-brainer, and I think before he should stick himself in front of camera or spotlight abroad he should lose weight, after Rush Limbaugh did and Rush was big one too. Because he has not attempted to lose weight it makes the American Image of Males look bad, physical mind you, and that I cannot stand for. My Brother may be overweight, but he has told me so, and he is trying to lose the weight, couldn't Mikey try to lose the weight too, after all he has the money so if he wanted to he could be lazy and have sucked out him like the rest of Hollywood. Notice I didn't say he lied or was telling the truth, I just find it offensive that movie stars and directors don't hold their bodies to at least a simple standard, and that is not to be overweight.

As for me commenting on the film before I saw it, I read the artlce that was linked which came from Slate MSN, and the guy who did SEE the movie commented that the movie lacked coherence.

What I said:

I did read the article and just from it, I am leery of watching it, because it seems Mikey had no clear coherence in his film, which sounds to me that it is bad directing and plot layout skills, but he gets an award for it, shows how far Hollywood has gone down when awards are given for Good Directing when the directing was bad.

From that all I was saying that one guy who did SEE the movie reviewed, and it made me leery of watching it, not that I am not going too, just feel a little more apprehensible about watching it, that's all, I did not comment saying that I say it's bad directing. No, I said it sounded to me like it was bad directing, which no matter what kind of movie you do, I abhor bad directing, which is why I seriously hate some movies, but than again if the directing is so bad its funny I like it. Notice I did not say Mikey was a Bad Director, what I did say that the guy who reviewed who did SEE the film said that Mikey was a bad director and should have had more coherence to the film.

What I do like, and feel that myself and others have influenced, is that you have toned down, and are now delivering your arguments better as befitting a grown, sane, and rational adult, this is the nature of debate it should always be sane and rational, not something else, which is why in Washington sometimes they forget that in an effort to bash one another.

As for Bush, the common line is that he is stupid, I don't think that is the case, and here is why I think why.
1. The man graduated from college and has a Bachelor's and Master's Degree.

2. He graduated with honors, and also attended Harvard or Yale (?) either way even if you have the money those schools will not tolerate people with bad grades.

3. Most people judge him as being stupid by looks, by the way he talks, or by his accent, I don't think that is the case, for if we could always say something intelligent there would be no humor in Politics, his accent is Texan (y'all best to not have have problem with that, because I as an Oklahoman has his back on that one, not to mention everybody has accents), and the last his looks, well if we could all look like Matt Damon or Ben Affleck what fun would there be in Politics.

4. They cite his business failings as stupidity, but do they know all the cause and factors of the business failing, and don't forget not everybody who was a President was successful in business, most facts about him being stupid in business are correlational at best, they don't prove that he was the direct cause or look at what factors besides Bush contributed to the Business failing. If everybody could run successful businesses there would be no unemployment ever.

5. I think I covered all the ones used to mark him as stupid, but if there is one I missed I will try to rectify it with a latter post, y'hear.

That's it for me for now.

Getter Done.
ShoZan

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I will probably have to do my own post on Moore - because I have seen all 3 of his films.

Michael Moore actually has 4 documentary films out: Roger and Me, The Big One, Bowling for Columbine, and Fahrenheit 9/11 as well as the comedy Canadian Bacon. This, by my count, makes a total of FIVE films, FOUR of which fall into the same documentary style as F 9/11.

The reason I point this out is that we on the left have bad spokespeople. Anybody see Janeane Garofalo try to go up against Sean Hannity a few weeks ago? Your statement of fact -- "three films" -- was incorrect, why should I take the other "facts" you post seriously? Incidentally, I enjoyed Mikey's film, and I hadn't heard of the new answer film "Fahrenhype" but I'll be happy to watch it. I don't want to be another one of these misinformed liberals.

We on the left are always accusing our fellow citizens on the right of being dumb liars. And certainly, there have been dumb lies that have spouted from the right. But the left has been guilty of the same sort of tactics, which pretty much makes me want to puke concerning the whole lot of American politics.

I know it's a quibbling point, but I think it's a symptom of the larger tendency for Americans to be uninformed. A simple look at Mike's site or the Internet Movie Database would have provided a nice fact check for you. And since I've seen all FIVE of these films, perhaps I should be the one to create a Michael Moore post. Hmmm.

I also reccommend "TV Nation" and "The Awful Truth" if you can find them. These were two short-lived TV series that Moore created. Very entertaining.

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Why can't we just accept people for what they are? Even if Moore was skinny , he probably wouldn't be a handsome man , then someone would be saying he's
ugly , like they did to Chelsea Clinton. The Clintons did a better job with Chelsea than the Bush's did with the twins!

I"ll say it again : Moore didn't want to be " a star" - he wanted to get some answers because he cared about his community . He went out - looking the way he did,
a true " Joe user " if there is one , and looked for the answers , which eluded him for a long time. Was he supposed to "get pretty" before he did this?

If a handsome , perfectly fit person did this , it probably wouldn't be the same , and it certainly would seem more " Hollywood " - Moore had to raise the money for
"Roger and Me" himself.

I still think it's funny that Dennis Hastert looks like Moore's big brother . Maybe you should email Hastert and tell him to lose weight because he's bad for the Republicans>

As for Bush - he has already proven that anything can be "bought" by the right people. That's why he had Guard duty. How can someone go to College and be so stupid?

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I"ll say it again : Moore didn't want to be " a star" - he wanted to get some answers because he cared about his community . He went out - looking the way he did,

Is that why Moore resorted to editing what people said in a way in which they condemn? Because he wanted to get honest answers and not because he wanted to make money?

As for Bush - he has already proven that anything can be "bought" by the right people. That's why he had Guard duty. How can someone go to College and be so stupid?

I know! He has a Texan accent! What an idiot!

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He graduated with honors, and also attended Harvard or Yale

Bush got his undergraduate degree from Yale. He did not graduate with honours. He also holds an MBA from Harvard. I am unaware of his standing in that class. Bush's Yale transcript is available online (I have provided a link), and you can see for yourself the mistake in thinking he graduated with honours from that school

Link

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I know! He has a Texan accent! What an idiot!

he he he . . . leave the holy name of Texas out of this!

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kingbee

Join Date 04/2004

+42

Counterpoint:

the first link you provided offers only quoted opinions

the second link is to a forum (with older posts archived elsewhere). it doesnt directly respond to the question i posed. however since that question is really offtopic, let's drop it for the time being.

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Why can't we just accept people for what they are? Even if Moore was skinny , he probably wouldn't be a handsome man , then someone would be saying he's
ugly , like they did to Chelsea Clinton. The Clintons did a better job with Chelsea than the Bush's did with the twins!

That is my prerogative not your own, my goal is to cut the fat or at least have people attempt to lose weight. I know some cannot simply lose weight without Medical intervention, but they do attempt to lose weight, I take action and state that we should look at getting Americans to lose weight by a proper diet and exercise, trust me if you think I am bad, you would simply loathe my former

.

If America is stupid, than also we should take action to educate and inform with both viewpoints on the subject just not one person's viewpoint, we don't need to keep hammering home the small picture and try to apply that to the big picture, the big picture should be hammered home than educating people on the smaller picture once they have grasped the concept of the former.

As for Dennis Hastert if I met him, I would say simply this:
"Sir, have you tried to lose weight because I think it would be in your best interest to lose weight, because with yourself being overweight, no rudeness intended, that you may suffer from health risks that you would not suffer from with your weight under control. To be overweight is hurting the American image that all Americans are overweight, but in reality we are not, it is just when compared to a similar nation people have less to eat, like India and China, than they can eat here, but let's not let the world even think we are overweight by you losing those pounds, sir. Also would you sign this bill of mine proposing Gravedigger's Day a National Holiday into law, thanks."

the second link is to a forum (with older posts archived elsewhere). it doesnt directly respond to the question i posed. however since that question is really offtopic, let's drop it for the time being.

Sorry about that should have included the Bibliography link on Vietnam done by Edwin E. Moïse, just trying to offer a different perspective, my reason for finding Kerry's testimony wrong, is because Senator McCain believes it was wrong, and McCain being a POW, well you can read up on about McCain's feelings, not to mention other POWs don't agree with Kerry's Testimony, and even officers during that time frame.

Link to Edwin E Moise Vietnam Bibliography
Link to Edwin's Pictures from Vietnam

Just an FYI

But yeah I will consider it dropped, and if the discussion is wanted to be continued, either you or me can start an article about the discussion on Vietnam, though I will have to ask my Uncle, Close Friends, and Family Friends about it since I was not born until 1981.

Bush got his undergraduate degree from Yale. He did not graduate with honours. He also holds an MBA from Harvard. I am unaware of his standing in that class. Bush's Yale transcript is available online (I have provided a link), and you can see for yourself the mistake in thinking he graduated with honours from that school

I stand corrected he was a C Average Student, still better than your average American I guess, don't know for sure.

Who was the stupidest U.S. president? [LINK] Little informational reply from Cecil on the question of:

Dear Cecil:
I understand that Thomas Jefferson was our smartest president. Who was our stupidest? Second stupidest? A related pair of questions: Did Yale not have an admissions department in the 1960s? If it did, doesn't it owe the country an apology? --Chris Lamb the elder, Baltimore

AND
Dear Cecil:
I realize there's probably no way the following can be determined with utter certainty. But in the best judgment of presidential scholars, have any of our chief executives--in addition to Ulysses S. Grant and George W. Bush, I mean--been alcoholics? --David English, Somerville, Massachusetts

Just FYI information for everybody, for the most part it seems unbiased, but than again if either side does not have their favorite candidate lifted on a pedestal above the others, than it is biased against them.

That's it for now.

As for Bush - he has already proven that anything can be "bought" by the right people. That's why he had Guard duty. How can someone go to College and be so stupid?

Well you can educate people but it doesn't mean they learn something, or gain integrity, key word here. I do not believe that either Kerry nor Bush have INTEGRITY, they sell out to the highest bidder, even if that is the Opinion of the American Public, but what did you expect it is after POLITICS, and anyone with Integrity in Politics died out a long time ago. G E O R G E I mean seriously there has not been anybody in recent history that has integrity in politics I wonder who that last person was. W A S H I N G T O N

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Is that why Moore resorted to editing what people said in a way in which they condemn? Because he wanted to get honest answers and not because he wanted to make money?

Messy , I'll bet you are another person who hasn't seen ANY of Moore's films.

Moore didn't want to make money on "Roger and Me" - he raised the money to make it , to show the plight of Americans being laid off.

If you are against that, there's something seriously wrong with you.

If he's made money off of films , it's because he's darned talented , and people go see it because of the reviews , and it goes from there.
I guess YOU don't expect to be paid for your work. But with films , there's no guarantee he'll make money.
It's because people love his work that he gets paid , and that's how it should be.

Now, I have seen 3 Michael Moore films. I haven't read any of his books , even though I hear they 're hillarious.
But, I haven't seen alot of editing to get a desired result - HE LETS THE PEOPLE TALK , AND THEY SAY WHAT THEY WANT.

IT'S THE SAME WITH FAHRENHEIT 9 /11 . He lets a woman who is gung ho war talk , and doesn't put a spin on it.
I don't see how any one who hasn't seen his movies can judge - your hype are the only lies associated with Moore!

Moore even withdrew from the Academy Award documentary race just on the chance that he can show it on TV - which he doubts - just ON THE CHANCE!

Prove to me what you've done in this lifetime for Americans that tops what Moore has done - with the TRUTH , all you have is your LIES.

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Another lttle tidbit about a Moore movie , and how people dig themselves into holes THEMSELVES.

There's a segment in "Bowling for Columbine" where they kind of take on the saying " Guns don't kill people, people kill people ."

There was a hunter who strapped a gun to his dog , and the dog shot the man.

So, Moore is interviewing this law enforcement official , and asked , tongue in cheek , if any charges were pressed against the dog.

Most intelligent people would look at Moore and raise an eyebrow , and say , aw c'mon now.

But the guy , in all seriousness , states something like " No , we don't have any laws against dogs shooting people "

It is just a crackup , and Moore didn't have to edit a thing. The man is brilliant.

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IT'S THE SAME WITH FAHRENHEIT 9 /11 . He lets a woman who is gung ho war talk , and doesn't put a spin on it.
I don't see how any one who hasn't seen his movies can judge - your hype are the only lies associated with Moore!

So, I take it that the people who have complained that they were misrepresented in the film are liars? Well, I guess they are. They're not filmmakers after all.

Prove to me what you've done in this lifetime for Americans that tops what Moore has done - with the TRUTH , all you have is your LIES.

What that logic, we can't really question the Bushes, Bill Gates, or P. Diddy. They've all done more than either of us has done too.

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I don't see how any one who hasn't seen his movies can judge - your hype are the only lies associated with Moore!

liveletlive

I seen the movie and three of his others.

In a comic and entertainment point of view its funny to me too. Michael Moore has always been good at satire and good editing. But in my opinion this may wind up hurting Kerry more then helping.

Michael Moore may not be lying but he is not telling the full truth either. The next time you watch that movie of half truths and incomplete interviews you will hear him say that "only one member of congress has an enlisted son or daughter presently in the military". Over 15 others have had children who served as enlisted in the past and another 36 presently have children that are officers presently in service. I guess that having your children serving, as officers don't count to Mister Moore.

The last time I checked its the individuals choice to join the military, not the parents. It was nice of him to badger only congressmen who had no children over the age of eighteen either.

That is only one example of Moore fast editing work and one-sided views. Check out my post "Boiling over Fahrenheit", that post gives descriptions of other dirty tricks that Moore has used in the past to miss lead the movie goers. He claims to be a great defend of the common soldier. But he has given nothing to them but attempts to lower their moral. He has not given one dime to any soldier's charities. I'm not saying that he has too. But when he edits interviews to sound totally different then what the soldier originally meant or what the original interview was for, and steps all over their families causing more anguish just for profits and a political agenda, then he should at least show some sign of really caring.

My Two Cents

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He wasn't talking about the past. He was talking about Iraq.

This is what people do. They take what Moore says, and go off in a completely different direction , just to call him a liar.

He said Iraq. Not the gulf war. Not Vietnam. Not Grenada.

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Reply #67 By: liveletlive - 9/16/2004 3:09:28 PM

He wasn't talking about the past. He was talking about Iraq.

This is what people do. They take what Moore says, and go off in a completely different direction , just to call him a liar.

He said Iraq. Not the gulf war. Not Vietnam. Not Grenada.

You seem to be missing the fact that his last and second to last movies have been debunked by more than one person.

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He said Iraq. Not the gulf war. Not Vietnam. Not Grenada.

Not Panama, Not Bosnia, Not Military Service before Iraq, what about Afghanistan or how about Somalia.

So I guess it doesn't count if they fought there or died there, what asinine logic that is.

The Past and the Present influence the future, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it end of story.

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Link

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So I guess it doesn't count if they fought there or died there, what asinine logic that is.

The Past and the Present influence the future, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it end of story.

You completely missed the point. Big surprise! ( Rolling eyes )

Michael Moore walked up to members of our Congress and asked if they would like to send their children to Iraq.

Since they are sending everyone elses' sons and daughters there , why not there own? Aside from the precious looks on their faces,
It was found that only one of them had a child in service in Iraq, and it figures , it's a Democrat's child.

So , one of them, at a later date , gets all upset , calling Moore a liar. There are those of us with family members in Iraq!

Once again , that's NOT what Moore said , that's not what his statement was. Moore said "child" , as in their own offspring.

So, since you guys can't seem to figure this one out:

If you have a child of your own , that is YOUR child. It is not your Cousin, it is not your uncle, it is not your Aunt , it is not your nephew.
Those other people are your RELATIVES , they are not your children ...

Got it now?

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Yet somehow the Bush-Cheney ticket is convincing Americans that only a Republican administration can handle national security. If John Kerry wins, Dick Cheney warned: "The danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating." The choice is simple: Vote Republican, or die. And voters are buying it.

I got corrected on that by Draginol, listen to the full soundbyte before you start trying to judge that.

In the end, 27 pages of the report on the role of the Saudis in 9/11 were classified by the White House and not released to the public. According to Graham, the Bush administration may have censored the material because it did not want the public to be aware of Saudi support for the 9/11 terrorists.

Only an idiot would not have thought Saudia Arabia was not behind it, at least partially, because the Hijackers had Saudi Passports, duh.

Once more this man Mikey has (though I am not judging F9/11 here) just taken soundbytes and snippets plus some records that well because this man is Saudia Arabian he must be supporting terrorist, so far the character that I see from Mikey is he is a racist deep down, anybody who is not white or siding with his viewpoint are unjustified and stupid, last time I checked there was more than ONE AMERICAN working for the GOOD of America, but he fails to see that, you want a better government get the DAMN SOCIALISM out of it, one party is becoming the National Socailism Party the other Communist Socailism party both seek to make government bigger, and Mikey is only helping to fuel the side of Socialism instead of rooting out all Socialism from the government, so far from what I have seen and read about Mikey even on Mikey's site shows that ultimately he cares about two things, himself and appeasing his audience so he can make money. This makes me even more leery of seeing F9/11 if the man uses half-truths to make a point no matter how sound that point is, it is still only a half-truth which is a tactic designed and used by Joeseph Goebbels.

Plus his even using George Orwell's name as a reference is sick, he does not deserve to use it when he backs political parties and ideas that promote SOCIALISM, something that George Orwell was deadset against, if you couldn't tell from his books Animal Farm and 1984, George loathed Socialism and tried to warn the ignorant masses as best he could, but alas his message falls on deaf ears who use his message to hammer home their side of socialism, and that is the bottom line that you can bet your ass on.

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Somehow the link thing got stick and there was a message that it didn't go through. It's all the same one.

When I posted again , all of the links came up - go figure!

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You seek to anger me with half-truths and attempts at twisting the english language, but it won't work on me, for I can see past almost all rhetoric, which is why I don't agree with Bush, and don't aggree with Kerry, they talk about GRANDIOSE plans, but offer little on the substance of going about actually using that plan.

I got your point and yet it is only half-true and one-sided, BIG SUPRISE, you can't see anything but the small picture.

WAKE UP AUTOMATON AND SEE THE BIG PICTURE AND UNTIL YOU DO I WILL NEVER AGAIN REPLY TO ANY OF YOUR COMMENTS, BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY HALF-TRUE OR EVEN FALSE BUT NOT FULLY TRUE, I DON'T LIKE TALKING WITH PARROTS WHO DON'T THINK.

SO UNTIL YOU WAKE UP AUTOMATON DON'T EXPECT ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION FROM ME.

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A Wiser man than myself has enlightened me to the fact that I don't know what I simply do not know, take that advice.

When you realize that you don't know what you simply do not know, you begin to realize that somethings you have been misinformed in by those who claim they know but do not know, and those are the first steps to true wisdom and knowledge.

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