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Muggaz

Join Date 12/2003

Me and my buddy Osama

sigh

I can tell you one thing my friends, Me and Osama have the same kind of relationship as I do with George W. Bush, I like neither of them, and If I were their biggest fans, I would be whispering similar sweet nothings into both their ears in regards to how I am in total disagreement with their methods.

The reason for this blog was a comment made on the Muggaz appreciation thread – I was referred to as Osama’s biggest fan, and a coward among other things. Unfortunately, I don’t have the power of seeing how people perceive me, nor do I know why they would perceive me as such. I hope I would have done enough to prove that I am a genuine, peace loving young man, rather than a vitriolic hate filled person that the jaded among us would have others believe.

My greatest fear in this world is not the world I live in, but the world my children will live in. If caring about that makes me evil, call me Satan, because I am as evil as pie. When I see article’s professing hatred of Islam, my concern is not for the wellbeing of the terrorists, it is for the wellbeing of the general populace of the nations terrorists inhabit, and as a further extension, the general populace of the world. It has come to my attention that in my concern for many people, I have offended but a few with my remarks.

If what I say can only incite disdain within individuals of this community, I am genuinely apologetic – I cannot apologise enough to a certain individual who sincerely believes I would have him dead – I cannot re-iterate enough times how that is not the case at all, and Greywar – if you knew me at all, you would believe me and my sincerity. I cannot redeem what I have said, but by the same token I do not take those remarks back. The article in question is reason enough for Islam to hate western society. My ideals involve Islam understanding the west, and the west to understand Islam – I may be glorifying the readership, but articles like that are genuine steps backwards – you are a member of the armed forces, it is those in the armed forces who should desire peace the most. Islam by its current interpretations is backwards, but flaming Islam itself rather than the thugocracies who hide behind it will not get us anywhere.

If I were Osama’s biggest fan, maybe he would listen to me, when I tell him that America and her allies is not the enemy, do you think he would listen if I showed him the hate filled articles that come from this site alone? If I were George’s biggest fan, I would tell him to stop doing business with the thugocracies of the Middle East – get out of Saudi Arabia whilst their establishments encourage Anti-Infidel sentiments… I am neither biggest fan, and neither would listen to me.

Whilst I cannot influence their actions, I can control my own – and if this involves me being hated by those who see nothing but evil in Islam, and hated by those who blindly follow George W. Bush, I can’t do anything to change that, those that would make enemies out of me will always believe I am attacking them and their ideals, and those that would have me as a friend know exactly what I am about as a person.

I hate having to justify my actions and comments like this, I have always been taught to see the best in people, and that is what I try and do, If people choose to see the worst in me, it is their prerogative, I can assure you though – I am no fan of Osama bin Laden, I am certainly no coward, and when certain individual’s have to draw the line some place and write entire blogs flaming me, drawing the line is what I am doing when I see hate filled articles that only encourage regression and contempt for other people just because of their religion.

I have no authority within this community, I have integrity though – and I will never let anyone try to intimidate that out of me.

BAM!!!

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Good Article Muggaz - Honest and Concise

While I doubt that it will have much of an effect on the people who have already made up their minds about you it will hopefully do some good to calm some of the waters.

Although the title of this article could have some negative effects - especially if someone didn't bother to actually read it but formed an opinion by the title and the author.

Overall good job!

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Trina_p, I quite agree - although for people to take exception to the title of the article without reading it would tell all anybody needed to know about them.

There is a HUGE difference between being Osama Bin Laden's 'greatest fan' on the one hand, and holding Islam solely responsible for all America's woes on the other. Neither strikes me as the slightest bit constructive. What 'answers' may exist lie - surely - somewhere between these extremes. The Western world in general, and the USA in particular, often paint themselves as the moral / political (and economic) custodians of the planet in general. Others, almost by definition, do not necessarily see things from the same perspective, and often for very compelling reasons. Muggaz merely suggests that we should examine some of these reasons and attempt to see the other perspectives before arguing for the blanket condemnation of Islam. Does that make him Osama Bin Laden's greatest fan? Of course not.

Sadly, post 11 September 2001, the already often overbearing demand upon Americans to salute the flag unquestioningly has become even more prevalent. Just look at Bush and Kerry, and their increasingly hysterical attempts to 'out- patriotise' each other all the way to the election. I hasten to add that I am not attacking Americans here - indeed, I suspect this climate must be very difficult to negotiate, and I do not envy you this task. All I am saying is that currently the American culture often appears to demand a knee-jerk reaction of blind patriotism - that 'my country, right or wrong' attitude - and failure to comply can lead to accusations of one being 'unpatriotic', 'un-American' (a term which may ring alarm bells with those who are familiar with J. Edgar Hoover's crusade against Communism in the 1950s), 'pro-Osama' etc.

Muggaz, I think you're spot on here. You and I have had our differences in the past, and - who knows? - we will probably have more in the future. The point is that this is a good thing - democracy without robust debate becomes just a meaningless verbal reflex. If those who disagree with you respond only by name-calling in this way, to my mind they have lost the argument already.

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Thanks for your well thought out and encouraging response FC - it's good to know that some people can read between the lines, and concentrate on the greater purpose.

Trina - your comments and support are always welcomed.... thanks guys.

BAM!!!

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Muggaz,

I think , from what I have noticed, that sometimes it's hard to know exactly where someone is coming from through the medium that is JU....with the inability to see anothers body language ...read their emotions vividly in their eyes....hear the subtle change of tone in their voice ..all of which helps us to grasp anothers wave length ...
So, don't let it bother you too much .....you know what you mean and sometimes people wont fully understand straight away as they are looking through their eyes and may simply focus on one singular point...but hopefully they give you the chance to re explain further if need be.
I have been reminded by being here not to jump to hasty conclusions and to give people a chance to listen and speak further to clarify mistaken disagreements.
What is also important is not to use pride as a stubborn way to dislike someone purely because they said something you did not like at some stage....We change everyday and life is too precious to not forgive and forget and move on.

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Muggaz, you know I don't take sides (most of the time) and I enjoy reading both you and Greywar. I am at a loss for words.

Really. I've typed in about eight paragraphs now and deleted them.

I guess the bottom line is that I commend your thoughtfulness and attempts to find the root of the problem--it's more effective than complaining about the effects. I fancy that I'm like that as well, though maybe not so publicly.

-A.

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The article in question is reason enough for Islam to hate western society.

For someone who sees such great power in words, you don't seem to be particularly careful in tossing them around yourself. You could probably save yourself a whole lot of trouble, disagreements, flames, et cetera if you put some more effort into expressing yourself clearly and unambiguously.

So, don't let it bother you too much .....you know what you mean and sometimes people wont fully understand straight away

On the other hand, if you've developed a clear pattern of having your words consistently taken in ways you never intended, ways that repeatedly cause hostile reactions, I think it should bother you some. You need to stop and think for a while before you hit the old "submit" button.

Seriously, I think you should go and look at the quotes of yours that little whip posted in her flame. Evaluate them as if you hadn't written them yourself, as if you'd never seen them before.
I think that if you look at them honestly with fresh eyes, you'll see that the words you wrote are clearly inflammatory. "If I were Muslim, I'd put an edict on Greywar's head right now."
Yes, I know you've tried to explain it away, but seeing that, how could anyone interpret it in a positive, "Muggaz-lovin" light?

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Seriously, I think you should go and look at the quotes of yours that little whip posted in her flame. Evaluate them as if you hadn't written them yourself, as if you'd never seen them before.
I think that if you look at them honestly with fresh eyes, you'll see that the words you wrote are clearly inflammatory. "If I were Muslim, I'd put an edict on Greywar's head right now."

I understand what you are asking me to do, and I would be happy to oblidge - Ask Greywar and Little Whip to do the same from the eyes of a Muslim though, and tell me the very words they wrote are not inflamatory.

I have never said my remarks weren't inflamatory, they certainly were, because I was genuinely incensed. When I read Greywars article, I had to go outside and have a cigarette, and contemplate why Muslims hate the west so much... I can tell you right now, I would be cleaning up after myself a lot more than I am now If i had replied straight away.

Truth be told Cithellion - MOST people I deal with do take me the way I am supposed to be taken, forgive me for being human - I dont come to blog to perfect my grammar, writing or articulation skills - I come here to share my honest opinions - the former three are bi-products of why I come here.... Maybe you should re-read my counter article to Greywars - quite a few people commended me for my stance, and I only needed to justify myself to a few people who choose to read into the absolute worst possible context.

Perceive me how you will - maybe others will save themselve a whole lot of trouble by not assuming the worst when it comes to me - it works both ways.

BAM!!!

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muggaz,

The fact that greywar's article is perceived as "a reason to hate" in itself serves as an indicator of the flawed foundation upon which SOME Muslim clerics build their theology.

Some see it as a reason to hate, others as a reason to educate. And hope lies in the latter, not the former.

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The fact that greywar's article is perceived as "a reason to hate" in itself serves as an indicator of the flawed foundation upon which SOME Muslim clerics build their theology.

Some see it as a reason to hate, others as a reason to educate. And hope lies in the latter, not the former.

Gid,

You know I place as much hope in the former as you do. I know there are methods to the madness, I just dont particularly think that the methods used by Greywar - insulting Islam with the most vile insults imaginable, are the correct ones... you are as bad as the Muslim clerics if you do that...

BAM!!!

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Mugz I think you are wicked, I think you're open and honest, and you wear your heart on your sleeve. That sometimes leaves you open to critics and people taking you the wrong way, but I wouldn't have you any other way. It's what makes you so brilliant, that you are always so honest and opinionated. People won't always agree with you, I haven't on occassion, but where would the fun be if we did all the time?

The people that this article is aimed at won't change their opinion, and I wouldn't expect them too. They have made their mind up about you, and so be it. I can see how some things you have said could be percieved as wrong, but attacking people, and not being willing to listeni isn't the answer to any of this. You're strong, and you will carry on doing what you believe in. Be true to yourself Mugz, and nothing else matters.

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if you really were his buddy, youd spell it usama not osama (i cant get ya off the hook for your close relationship with george bush tho...sorry)

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ooops the bin laden curse strikes again. please delete one of those?

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insulting Islam with the most vile insults imaginable, are the correct ones... you are as bad as the Muslim clerics if you do that...

Do you mean as bad as the radical Muslim clerics who get people to stone suspected adulteresses, who advocate the destruction of non-muslims, who celebrate the death of innocents? Because if you do, I'd have to say you have a very bad case of moral relativism.

Please describe what you think an average muslim is like. Because from what you've posted so far (in a variety of posts and threads), the impression I have gotten is this:
your average muslim is a depressed, self-hating, world-hating, hyper-sensitive, suicidal moron.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

You know I place as much hope in the former as you do. I know there are methods to the madness, I just dont particularly think that the methods used by Greywar - insulting Islam with the most vile insults imaginable, are the correct ones... you are as bad as the Muslim clerics if you do that...

Uh, What?!?! How can you say that *saying* something is as bad as *doing* something? One is an opinion, the other is killing people. How can you justify that?

For the record, it's statements like those that get you in hot water. First you are acting like you are apologizing to Greywar, now you are saying he is as bad as a cleric.

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Please describe what you think an average muslim is like. Because from what you've posted so far (in a variety of posts and threads), the impression I have gotten is this:your average muslim is a depressed, self-hating, world-hating, hyper-sensitive, suicidal moron.

Whoever believes the above is as ignorant as one can get! Your average Muslim is no different than your average Christian, Jew , Buddhist or anything else.

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Great article!

I have given you an, "insightful," on this one.

I get the impression that some people feel, that if you don't think like them, that you're an "idiot" or that you must belong to the "other side."

Sure, I've seen some of your "Posts" that may stray off the beaten path a bit, but that's ok. We're not going to agree with everyone all the time.

To my way of thinking, the world is not, black & white.

"You are either with Us, or against Us."

Please!
Give me a break!
Switzerland has been a neutral nation forever.

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Uh, What?!?! How can you say that *saying* something is as bad as *doing* something? One is an opinion, the other is killing people. How can you justify that?

You really need to put it into perspective... Go and read Greywars articles... it's is clear to all concerned that the man has an unfortunate hatred for all things Islam... We are lucky enough to live in an educated society though - we aren't as impressionable as those in the middle east - because our society is not run by thugocracies, and we do have freedom of expression...

let us hypothosise for a moment... put the shoes on the other feet, and suggest that we aren't as educated as we fortunately are... if I read Greywars articles, I would be marching to the beat of a drum to kill all things Muslim... thats the picture he paints of them... lucky for greywar we aren't all as unfortunate as those in the Middle East...

By mentioning that he is as bad as a Muslim cleric, he is inciting hatred for the other side... no one mentioned anything about doing anything... he is certainly pushing the same buttons though - I am just glad that we live in an individualistic society where we can make up our own minds.

The 'average' Muslim that I know is the same as you and me - well, those are the Muslims that live in Australia... as far as Muslims in the middle east go - I would be brash enough to say they are un-educated and down trodden, as that is within the thugocracies interests to keep the fear of Allah in their hearts... of course, that is speculation, but one humble persons opinion.

For the record, it's statements like those that get you in hot water. First you are acting like you are apologizing to Greywar, now you are saying he is as bad as a cleric.

For the record, I was apoligising to Greywar, because he thinks I want him dead - I dont want him dead at all, but I live in the same political climate you do, and I can visualise in my head why un-educated, radical Muslims would want him dead, and how can I possibly apologise to them for him writing hate filled articles?

I am in no way apologising for anything I have done, or said. I am apologising for the way it has been interpreted.

Carry on...

BAM!!!

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I'm just going to pick on one small thing for starters:

I can visualise in my head why un-educated, radical Muslims would want him dead, and how can I possibly apologise to them

And why in hell would you feel the need to apologize to un-educated, radical Muslims?? (This is a serious question, I'd really like an answer.)

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And why in hell would you feel the need to apologize to un-educated, radical Muslims?? (This is a serious question, I'd really like an answer.)

I would want to do everything within my power to try and educate them.... It's not so much the radical I can apologise to, they wouldn't listen anyway... It's the moderate Muslims I want to apologise to - I want them to know that not all of western society thinks they are savages just because of their religion - it is probably best explained here Link

Read into that what you will - you have all made your mind up about me anyway...

BAM!!!

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okay, part 2:

I am in no way apologising for anything I have done, or said. I am apologising for the way it has been interpreted.

This right here, to my mind, demonstrates one of two things: either how bad you are at expressing yourself, or how arrogant you are. I'm still trying to be nice and give you the first interpretation. But really.
You've just said, in effect, "I'm sorry that you're too stupid to understand what I've been saying." That is not an apology, that's an insult.

I would want to do everything within my power to try and educate them.

How does apologizing to them (hopefully in a more appropriate manner, I might add) help to educate them? Any Muslim with a modicum of sense already knows that there are tons of varying opinions about them, and there are plenty of Westerners more than willing to defend even Islam's most heinous offenses that many Muslims themselves would denounce if asked. Just as any Westerner with an ounce of sense knows that most of the world's terrorism problems stem from one small branch of radical Islam that is not followed by the vast majority of Muslims.

Again I ask, why do you feel the need to educate them? What purpose will it serve? What benefit will be gained from it?

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Read into that what you will - you have all made your mind up about me anyway

Just as any Westerner with an ounce of sense knows that most of the world's terrorism problems stem from one small branch of radical Islam that is not followed by the vast majority of Muslims.

So why do these Westerners with an ounce of sense slam the whole Islamic faith rather than the small branch of Radical Islam? duh?

BAM!!!

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Oh! Now I get it! If you express an opinion, then you are invoking un-educated people to do bad things, so then you are as bad as a Muslim cleric?

Gee...this makes more and more sense all the time.........So, they are "impressionable" and "uneducated" so we shouldn't state an opinion on what is happening over there right now?

By mentioning that he is as bad as a Muslim cleric, he is inciting hatred for the other side... no one mentioned anything about doing anything... he is certainly pushing the same buttons though - I am just glad that we live in an individualistic society where we can make up our own minds

Sorry, but that is just backpedaling. Muslim clerics don't just incite hatred- they torture and kill people. Greywar was expressing an opinion. There is *no* way that the two compare no matter how you try to justify it. "Pushing buttons" and terrorizing people are not the same. Stating an opinion on verifiable events (it's easy to verify the torture and deaths that are happening over there) and being the person to tortures and kills are not in the same league no matter how you try to justify it. I am starting to think that you have no ability of moral relativism what-so-ever.

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I draw reference to the same issue of time LW - where it states

"The vast majority of of the worlds more than 1 billion practicing Muslims are peaceful citizens getting on with thier lives. But interviews by TIME with religious leaders, Islamic scholars, government analysts and ordinary citizens in dozens of countries areound the world reveal that the fervor of those who adhere to the radical forms of Islam has intensified since 9/11. While Muslims continue ot consume and even celebrate Western pop culture, hostility to the policies of the West, in particular the U.S., appears to be on the rise. It is being propelled in part by anger at the U.S.'s staunch support of Isreals policies toward the Palestinians, contempt for the U.S.'s occupation of Iraq..."

"We are passing through the hardest moments of spreading the moderate voice of our religion," Says Sheik Khaled el-Guindi, 42, a moderate imam in Cairo, "Most of the pictures we see are of Iraqi heads stepped on by American Army Boots. It is no longer an occupation, but a humiliation." Says Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, A Pakistani cleric and Member of Parliament: "The U.S. and it's allies must realise that by this occupation, by killing and dishonering Muslim women - such as in the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq - they are sowing the seeds of hatred"

"In Britain, a recent government survey put the number of hard core Muslim radicals at 10,000 and growing.A poll of British Muslims in March found that 13% believe that further attacks by Al-Queda or similar organizations on the USA would be justified. In Indonesia, the worlds most populous Muslim country, only 15% view the US favorably, compared with 61% in 2002.

In Saudi Arabia, according to a recent poll, 48.7% of the population sympathizes with the aims of bin Laden.

Why exactly do you think this is LW? Do you think they dont like America, and it's policies because it is the flavor of the month? you read the article, you know how many muslims dont support al-Quada, yet when people write articles like Greywars that started this whole argument, why would they place faith in redemption through moderate Islam? Just because I am trying to view the world from an every day Muslim's vantage point - does not make me Osama Jr.

When I speak about education - I refer to Moral education...which involves moderate interpretaions of Islam. You know what I am talking about - why is the American government pumping so much money into education in Pakistan? because the fundamentalist schools are still able to recruit students, because of the anti-US sentiment... I mean it with the utmost respect, but when 48.7% of a general populace supports a madman, the thugocracies are responsible for that attitude.

I put this question to you LW - how does America assist the global population in improving it's foreign image? - hence stemming the problem of fanatasicm. Another quote for TIME - "The U.S. will spend $1 billion on public diplomacy this year, a figure that has not increased since Sept. 11 and that ammounts to 0.3% of the countries defense budget." You pay your taxes, so I guess you dont plan on contributing to this foreign diplomacy right? Well, consider what I do to bridge relationships free to uncle Sam - the only charge is you putting up with it without speculating that I am in league with one of the most evil men in my life time.

BAM!!!

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And LW - I dont know what the problem is - but i seriously cannot comment on your blog - the warning was a personal one... you are backing me into a corner, and when I have no place to go, I come out fighting... continue referring to me as Osama Jr, and show your true colours... you think I am going to give in to you? I thought you were the submissive one... dominance just doesn't suit you ok?

I have asked none of my friends for sympathy - they have offered to comment for me, and as I had no other choice, i had to accept their offers... don't bring them into it.

I dont understand why you hate me so much... surely you have seen I am genuine in my sympathy? you think I care for the Islamic populace because I dont like Americans? I have news for you - life is to short to hang around a predominantly American blog site where i "hate" everyone. I have strong sentiments of dis-like towards you right now, but I am here because I like it, I enjoy it, and there are many Americans I enjoy the e-company of... so find some more ammo to use against me ok? You have read all my blogs trowling for dirt - look harder - there is heaps of crap in there!

It's been real.

BAM!!!

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Sir Peter was right all along... you have the hots for me... two comments and I am obsessing? This is too funny... sorry 'babe' not my type.

Shall I now drag up where you have complained about semantics LW? it's all contextual... and talk about obsessing.... sheesh...

run along and play with the people you like, quit annoying those you dont.

BAM!!!

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Me and my buddy Osama

Me and my buddy Osama

*sigh*

sigh