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HalfCentBidfor2Thoughts
Join Date 12/2003
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Bush's Hypocrisy

Declaration of Inde-what?

December 10, 2003 1:04:08 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
President George W. Bush yesterday announced that the U.S. would not support any unilateral steps on the part of Taiwan for it's idependence from China.

What?

This statement could lead and should lead to many commentaries on both sides. However, let's simply look at it from the Amercian Dream side, keeping economic alterior motives independent.

How can the leader of the worlds most succesful democracy, which was founded upon the desire for indepence from a mother nation, essential oppose a people's similar wish? Not only does he not support Taiwan's move for independence, but he also put his bet on a communist nation, China, who refuses to release the "renegade" province. Wait, wasn't the cold war fought over the wrongs of communism? Therefore, this point alone is a one-two punch to the face of Taiwan. "Hey, you small democratic island with similar ideals of early American colonists, not only can you not be independent, but you also have to be communist."

Whoa!

The second item on Bush's verbial platter of political Hagus, was the word "Unilateral." Who should not take unilateral actions? Oh yeah, that whole thing about the U.N. not backing a war in Iraq. That didn't mean anything and it certainly was not a unilateral move. Enough said.

It is just a sad day, when the leader of the free world, verbally tramples on a small nations hopes and dreams for democracy. It looks like Quebec won't ever get Bush's seal of approval.
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HalfCentBidfor2Thoughts
Patty O
Join Date 11/2003
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Reply #1 December 10, 2003 1:32:53 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So what do you want? Do you want the US to be involved in yet another war while trying to free Taiwan, when we already have to deal with the war happening right now? Remember the adage, "pick your fights." This is not the time to engage in another military situation. and this thing with Taiwan has gone on for years prior to Bush's administration. Unless you are willing to put your behind on the line, militarily speaking, we need to finish one job berfore starting another.
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russellmz
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #2 December 10, 2003 2:11:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
--------------------------------------
So what do you want? Do you want the US to be involved in yet another war while trying to free Taiwan, when we already have to deal with the war happening right now?
--------------------------------------

aside from the fact that taiwan is a major us trading partner, if another democratic nation is threatened do you feel we should not fight to help them?
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Draginol
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #3 December 10, 2003 3:41:06 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Don't be naive.

IF the US were to support Taiwan claiming independence and Taiwan then declared independence, China would likely take military action.

Who is going to defend Taiwan? It would end up being the US.
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HalfCentBidfor2Thoughts
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #4 December 10, 2003 4:00:37 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I fear that my statements may have been misunderstood. I mentioned nothing about military action. I am more worried about the principle. Simply the idea that Bush would not back independence with his words and ideals, is very unsettling. Yes, if we take into account economic variables, it is proably not good to piss off china. However, to simply appease a trade partner by essentially downplaying the entire basis of your own country is very surprising and and hypocritical.
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Draginol
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #5 December 10, 2003 11:42:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Words alone are empty. Words mean things.

Bush, being a conservative, believes words mean things. Which means empty platitudes are dangerous. Good intentions with negative consequences are to be avoided.

Warm fuzzy sentiment that result in American deaths are not what I look for in my Presidents.
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Light_TAS
Join Date 09/2003
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Reply #6 December 11, 2003 8:37:08 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I understand your views dealing with how we are not supporting a country so similar to our own, in our early stages, and yet, the unilateral action involved would include war. Think about what supporting the Taiwanese would do: Weaken our already poor relations with China, Give the Taiwanese a false sense of what we would intend to do (such as help them in a war against the the largest military in the world (Largest does not mean most developed)), and finally, give the hippocritical assholes, like the South Carolinan who organized the Anti-US riots in the UK, another chance to complain about something else that our government is doing wrong.

Does Taiwan ever stand a chance against massive Chinese army? Is it worth it to piss off not only the middle east, but also the rest of Asia? Its nice that you want to support a country working for its independence, but you need to be realistic. There is simply no way that the United States could involve itself in something so insignificant to us as the independence of Taiwan.

Good idea HalfCentBidfor2Thoughts, but we simply cannot afford to do so.
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Alex T6903
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #7 December 11, 2003 1:35:48 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
What you’re ignoring in you’re efforts to bash Bush is that this is probably the most liberal US policy toward Taiwan in the past 50 years. In the past the policy was “Taiwan is a part of China and we don’t support their full independence.” Now Bush is saying, “Taiwan is a part of China and we support their full independence if China says it’s OK.” Personally I’d call that progress.
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bakerstreet
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #8 December 11, 2003 2:27:51 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
China is of the opinion that if Taiwan isn't there's, it won't be anyone's. They don't think for a moment that an independent Taiwan is possible, they just assume that if they aren't controlling it, someone else will. We can make a big stand, move our military there, make ugly faces... and then an insane amount of missiles will fall from the sky and the whole reason for the war will be a smoking, possibly glowing, mess. Granted, we might win a horrifying war with the most populous nation on earth, but Taiwan would most certainly cease to exist. Hard to call that 'winning'.

So, the original question becomes, if you can liberate any nation unilaterally, why not unilaterally rush in and try to liberate those you cant? Well, the answer to that is obvious. You might liken Taiwan to early American colonies, but their war for Independence won't be fought with muskets. If you care about Taiwan, and want to continue being their ally, their continued existence is integral. Slow and steady seems to be the way to go.


"It looks like Quebec won't ever get Bush's seal of approval."

I'm sorry, that one makes me laugh two hard to answer it. If Quebec is even in the great line of oppressed people waiting for support, they are way, way in the back... probably in front of the folks who are abducted regularly by aliens.
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olikara
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #9 December 12, 2003 4:52:31 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
BakerStreet

I couldn't agree more with you. The best option for Taiwan would be to maintain the status quo i.e. neither independent nor chinese. The Chinese will not wage a war for Taiwan now as this will put paid to any thoughts China has to be a world power.

They will take at least another 20 yrs. to be one and by that time I think China would be less communist and more of a democracy. History has shown us that there are no Rich Democracies.

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GemCityJoe
Join Date 11/2003
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Reply #10 December 12, 2003 7:21:49 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ole G.W. ain't as dumb as you may think he is... Hes just sucking up to China right now because he wants them to deal with North Korea so that we don't have to. Geez, we may be a mega power but we're not GOD! We can't be in all places at all times. GCJ
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JEPEL
Join Date 11/2003
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Reply #11 December 12, 2003 12:23:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I don't think you should look for any moral reasons in order to understand US foreign policy. For real politic, you always have good reasons and the real reason. American principle are better appreciated at home for electoral reasons.
In addition, you'll have to remember that when you talk about china, you mean 25 % of human being. Even with the best technology, you can't contain anything of that size. You have to deal in a very pragmatic manner. Afterall in 25 years, they might be the master of the world...
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Frog Attack
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #12 December 12, 2003 7:52:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Hey if Taiwan had some oil to give us or some niche for a company that Bush or Cheney owned stock in, things would be different. But it doesn't.
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stevendedalus
Join Date 11/2003
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Reply #13 December 17, 2003 12:50:28 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
A large island by any other name is still Formosa, the rightful property of China. We cannot and should not get involved in another war--enough is enough.
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stevendedalus
Join Date 11/2003
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Reply #14 December 17, 2003 12:56:31 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Yet we seem to be gods in Iraq. What is the difference? Surely China has plenty of WMD. But I agree the last thing we wnat is another "police action." Remember the forgotten war in Korea!
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