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mignuna

Join Date 01/2004

critical comments or no comments ?

... which do you prefer ?

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“would you rather have critical comments or no comments ?”

i was asked this recently in a comment on my poetry. it’s a very insightful question that i was glad to be asked. making a comment on poetry can be difficult. poetry is very personal, so it's not like a "normal" blog in which you can offer actual input. yet, if something you read touches you in any way, it’s a compliment to it’s author and they deserve to know about it.

there is the consideration that not all poetry is designed to arouse happiness or warmth, in fact some of the best poems i have read on here are the ones that made me feel confronted in some way. even though that may have been the authors' intention, it is still easier to walk away that to risk saying so and perhaps causing offence.

i mean, you really cannot read an angry poem and say “that made me feel ill” in your comment and expect to sound like you enjoyed the experience, can you ?.

neither can you comment on a sensual piece by saying “well, THAT got the old blood pumping, nudge-nudge, wink wink”.

so, what to do ?

i try and look at it this way: when i write a poem, i do actually want to know what others think - it's a real joy to have somebody "get" me that way. although, as i often ignore grammatical and punctuation rules, that would technically make a “critique” of my work a litany of “this was wrong” and “you changed tenses”, etc, which probably would sound offensive as a comment.

so, i'd say that i myself would rather have "critical" comments provided they take the form of relevance to the work somehow, and not a "your grammar is wrong" type of thing. as far as poetry is concerned, i think most of the bloggers on ju would prefer ANY comment than none at all. it really is very encouraging to have people comment on your more creative stuff. in a lot of cases, ju is the only feedback available, which makes it doubly valuable.

comments don't have to be a full dissection (but those of course are so welcome), even a quick "this made me think" or a shared experience you can relate it to (good or bad) is great. i have recently seen several wonderful poets express doubt at the appeal of their work/s due to few or no comments, and i think a little bit of support would go a long way.

i’d hate to see the “art” section of ju wither and die whilst still in it’s infancy ... (insert pathetic pleading tone ... here) ... so, please support your local ju starving poets ... just no saying you think it’s awful when aweful will do just as nicely

note: i'd like to thank sarah (aka bigdreamer) for asking me this question. judging by this blog, it was something i felt very passionate about without even realising !. kudos to you, sarah, for your insight. mig XXX.

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This raises again a point which seems to keep coming up in many areas of life, and actually has been for some times. Books have been written - best sellers - on the subject of "quality."

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is one as well as "Atlas Shrugged".

Critique of art is subjective, but it is no stretch to think that the person who has the entire inventory of a home depot at his/her disposal will build a better house than the guy that has a petrified banana and a box of nails. What I mean by that is, yes - everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some opinions are founded on a a more detailed scrutiny of the experiential data at hand than others.

If you leave comments turned on, you'll get a variety of opinions, and it's really up to you to keep what is useful to you, and discard the rest.

For my "money", I prefer you and other artists don't listen to any criticism at all. Think what you think and execute it in your works. This is your purist measure of your own quality. If you ever take others' criticism, and then change what you do in accordance with it, or even in opposition to it, you will be diluting yourself. The world is already full of followers.

There is a story about this, if anyone can ever find it, called "Unaccompanied Sonata" by Orson Scott Card. If you can find this story, read it. It's a must read for every artist. (In my opinion)

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So much for "if you can't say anything nice...."

I can't speak for everyone..but i know i'd rather have a critical comment i could learn from than nothing at all, although i know sometimes ive been affected by someone's work, but not really know what to say....

Will definately try harder in future!!

thanks mig...

love Dyl xxx

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everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some opinions are founded on a more detailed scrutiny of the experiential data at hand than others

agreed

If you leave comments turned on, you'll get a variety of opinions, and it's really up to you to keep what is useful to you, and discard the rest

also agreed

If you ever take others' criticism, and then change what you do in accordance with it, or even in opposition to it, you will be diluting yourself

... i predominantly suffer from the awful-yet-increasingly-familiar-feeling i experience when people use their own private moral or mental standards to apply a verdict to something i wrote, particularly when they don't appear to have a full comprehension of it.

There is a story about this, if anyone can ever find it, called "Unaccompanied Sonata" by Orson Scott Card. If you can find this story, read it. It's a must read for every artist.

oddly enough, i just read your blog and i posted a comment about orson scott card. hmmm. i adore that story. and i agree that it's a must for any creative soul ... that he dilutes his creativity via curiosity at first by first listening to the bach, then also by altering his playing to hide the fact that he had heard the fugues/music (by producing a performance utterly lacking any of their elements) is typical of the effect of criticism on the creative mind.

after he loses his voice and his fingers and then hears his songs in the hall all that time later, his joy at the teenagers' knowing his "old" self through his songs is a great lesson to those who would allow themselves to listen to criticism too closely.

thankyou so much for this amazingly thought-provoking and genuinely insightful comment, ockhamsrazor

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Will definately try harder in future

hey, i didn't mean you, dyl !. your comments are always amongst the best, chickie

mig XX

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"well, THAT got the old blood pumping, nudge-nudge, wink wink"

Well, you didn't tell me you were offended when I said that to you. Sheesh.

as i often ignore grammatical and punctuation rules, that would technically make a "critique" of my work a litany of "this was wrong" and "you changed tenses", etc, which probably would sound offensive as a comment.

As far as poetry, anything goes (in my opinion). The only question of grammar or punctuation would be "does it work" (in the context of the piece), does it help or hinder the intent. The same goes (though perhaps not to so great an extent) for any form of creative writing. There's an art to punctuation and grammar that must take precedence. Rules can't dictate effect, feel, texture, mood.

As for whether I personally would prefer criticism or silence, it depends. I certainly want comments and am disappointed when I get none to few. I'm not writing simply to be told I've descended from Olympus to show lesser mortals the true path. (Of course it happens to be true -- I'm just not writing for that purpose.) I welcome the opportunity to strengthen my work. However, I don't like fools. If the criticism can be done in a spirit of camaraderie then fine. If they're ignorant little twerps who want to exercise their delusions of superiority they can go elsewhere.

The only other criticism that bothers me is when I am right, know I am right, can factually prove I am right, and someone comes along who hasn't looked at the issue for more than the 2 minutes it took them to read my article and tells me I'm wrong. Excuse me, I need to address the audience -- People, if I spent the time writing about it, maybe I have done more than a little research into it. It should be obvious from the articles themselves that I am not just typing them into the browser form and pressing send. There's some work, research and thought that goes into these things. Do you think I made up those links and quotes off the top of my head? Before you take ten seconds to click a button and tell me my facts are wrong, maybe you should take some time and investigate whether you have any facts or just your worthless little opinion.

(Hmmm, seems a couple of Comments from Blogs Past pissed me off....)

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The only one that got any attention at all was the "Why I Hate Cats" poem, which is by far one of my crudest works, but it was funny and thats why it drew comments, i suppose

i agree, little_whip. the humour would have provided a "safe" opportunity to comment. (i have to sleep soon, but i must look at your cat poem tomorrow. sounds like one i would like)

More recently I posted the poem i read at my wedding....i see that the page has been viewed quite a few times...but again, no comments. Maybe folks just dont know how to respond

i get that, too. i agree that it is the "not knowing what to say" thing that can be the killer. i see some of mine get viewed with no comments and i think ... "what ? ... did it suck THAT bad that they're all speechless?"

1) I really enjoyed that.........because
2) I didnt care for it...........because
3) I understand what you meant..........
4) i dont understand what you were trying to say.........

little_whip, these are excellent starter points for any comment ... i implore anybody who is unsure what to say to a creative blog they have enjoyed to use these suggestions to let the author know they have appreciated their effort

Anything, anything at all would be appreciated, you dont have to have degree in writing to know if you liked a piece or not......

i second that. anything you can say is better than silence, and you don't have to be a professional critic, just a few words will do, and they WILL be appreciated.

thanks again, little_whip.

sleepy mig XXX

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by altering his playing to hide the fact that he had heard the fugues/music (by producing a performance utterly lacking any of their elements) is typical of the effect of criticism on the creative mind.

Interesting. There are times when I'll not have anything to do with something similar to what I'm working on or plan to work on in the future because I don't want it to taint my vision. Kevin Kline's Hamlet comes to mind. I didn't watch his till after I had done mine. (His is surprisingly good, by the way -- considering I don't like him -- check it out if you get a chance.)

Now, after I've gotten mine out in some kind of solid form, then I'll sometimes look at what others have done and see if I can, by similarity or contrast, use their work to strengthen my own.

Oh well, that's a whole other topic. Sorry to digress.

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Well, you didn't tell me you were offended when I said that to you. Sheesh

hehe, sorry, there you are gene, reading my mind again, posting when i post ...

I welcome the opportunity to strengthen my work. However, I don't like fools. If the criticism can be done in a spirit of camaraderie then fine. If they're ignorant little twerps who want to exercise their delusions of superiority they can go elsewhere.

oooooh. i just love it when you sound all forceful, gene

The only other criticism that bothers me is when I am right, know I am right, can factually prove I am right, and someone comes along who hasn't looked at the issue for more than the 2 minutes it took them to read my article and tells me I'm wrong

i have a name for the opinions of such persons, gene. they are "opidions". ("opidion" - opinion of an idiot ... ie: "person who has such a stupidly closed mind in a subject area that their sheer idiocy renders their opinion useless"). it's a handy word. you can insult the next person who annoys you right out loud to their face by saying "that's just your opidion". (they will just think you have flu or something).

thanks again, gene. your comments are always worth having

mig XX

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There are times when I'll not have anything to do with something similar to what I'm working on or plan to work on in the future because I don't want it to taint my vision

you got me again !. and i agree. i do this too

if you get a chance

chances are not good, but if i do, i will hehe

Now, after I've gotten mine out in some kind of solid form, then I'll sometimes look at what others have done and see if I can, by similarity or contrast, use their work to strengthen my own

how many times can i say i agree withyou before you become ill, gene ?

Oh well, that's a whole other topic. Sorry to digress

i don't mind. but it is a good topic. i think you should do a blog on it, i like the points you already have

mig XX

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I understand where yu're coming from on this one. I don't know if it's typical of most readers, but I find it hard to make any sort of comment with regard to poetry. I am not a poet by any stretch of the imagination and so have no real point of reference with regard to the technical aspects of writing poetry.

I am also not one who actually enjoys most poetry although once in a while a piece will touch me in some way. Honestly I never actually thought about a poet looking for comments on their poetry as it is something of artistic expression. In the future I'll try to make an effort to formulate some sort of comment regarding the poetry. These will, of course, be based more on "reader's impression" than any sort of technical knowledge of poetry.

I do read a lot of your poetry. Frankly most poetry (not just yours) really doesn't appeal to me but once in a while one will make a connection. I guess that's why I keep reading them

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Why oh why am I always arriving to these threads late! Great article mig, usual though! I would never ever be brave enough to post any poetry on JU, I have read some of the talented poets on here, got slated once for a comment i left, and thought twice about doing so again! However if somenthing really touches me or I think wow, I do comment, mostly just to show appreciation to the writer, if I don't get it, I don't generally comment, just in fear of insulting the writer, or making myself look stupid though I should be used to that. When I posted some fiction I was so nervous about the comments I got, I thought will people get this, and it was so nice to see people liking it, though i did think it was more out of pity than anything else, but they were still appreciated, so yes, my waffle is leading towards, definatly comments, no matter what, and I shall try and give more comments to those talented poets of JU, Brownies honour!

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hi,
that was a interessting article i like it and i want to submit some articles too so could you please tell me how to submit an article.

Jattoffresno2@yahoo.com
Thanx.

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I tend to avoid direct comment on works that are "not my style". The fact is, my prejudice tends to limit my ability to form an objective opinion. I am also an intense egotist, and don't want that to come through in my critique, so, frankly, I believe sometimes no answer is the answer I can give.

One respondent hit the nail on the head, though, when they basically said to not listen to the critics. Sure, unintentional lapses of grammar, style, or syntax are constructive starting points in the editorial process, but the truth is, your works are as much a part of you as your blood and your breath, and the subjective opinions of others shouldn't carry much weight.

Still, it was polite of Sarah to ask the question before blurting out a response.

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Honestly I never actually thought about a poet looking for comments on their poetry as it is something of artistic expression

that is a very good point, mason. i actually hadn't considered it from that angle. thanks for adding it

I find it hard to make any sort of comment with regard to poetry.

i understand that feeling. i feel the same way in some of the politcal and IT threads. but i do try and say something, even if it is just to thank the author for taking time to share their view, etc

However if somenthing really touches me or I think wow, I do comment, mostly just to show appreciation to the writer

sal, yours are always well-thought out comments, and, as this one is, are balanced and welcome. thankyou. you make an actual diference to people, though you may not alwasy know it

that was a interessting article i like it and i want to submit some articles too so could you please tell me how to submit an article

hi .. all you need to do is go the joe user home page and "create" a blog. it's that simple and it costs nothing. welcome to our community

(www.joeuser.com).

The fact is, my prejudice tends to limit my ability to form an objective opinion

still, gideon, you are wise enough to exercise caution rather than just randomly insulting or flaming. that in itself is valuable

Sure, unintentional lapses of grammar, style, or syntax are constructive starting points in the editorial process, but the truth is, your works are as much a part of you as your blood and your breath, and the subjective opinions of others shouldn't carry much weight

i have nothing to add to that, gideon. you said it so beautifully, and i am in such agreement, that i can only thank you for adding it.

mig XX

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I'd rather get a critical comment than nothing at all. There's nothing more disheartening than when my poems/lyrics get no comments whatsoever, considering how much they mean to me.

Sure, in the end, I do write for myself and I do realise it's hard to comment on poetry, but it's a huge encouragement knowing that people take the time to read and comment on them. A comment is the only way for me to judge whether I struck a cord with anyone.

Did I make any sense?

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There's nothing more disheartening than when my poems/lyrics get no comments whatsoever, considering how much they mean to me.

macky, you were one of the wonderful poets i was referring to when i said i had noticed how discouraging it was to receive no feedback whatsoever, so i'm glad you read this

Sure, in the end, I do write for myself and I do realise it's hard to comment on poetry, but it's a huge encouragement knowing that people take the time to read and comment on them. A comment is the only way for me to judge whether I struck a cord with anyone

macky, as you know, i try my best to comment on your poems, as you do with mine. i enjoy your work a great deal, as i know many others do. i'll keep commenting if you do heh

Did I make any sense?

hmm. macky, i suspect you always do heh

mig XX

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I think there is a very distinct difference between criticising and critiquing. The former is just saying you don't like something (think of what's-his-name on American Idol), the latter gives the author imput as to what the person doesn't like and does so in such a way that the intent is to be helpful, rather than hurtful.

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I think there is a very distinct difference between criticising and critiquing

emoticon man, i do agree with your statements as applied in your example. titling my post "critical comments or no comments" was to enquire in a general way if people preferred to have "ego stroking" comments only, or if they would actually prefer to know if the reader had any objection at all - and it's so hard to define what standards or rules others may be applying to your work if they do object.

it's been genuinely eye opening have so many extra dimensions added to this article, and i'm alraedy regretting not going into more depth with it.

in particular, i'm pleased you made the point about the intent of the reader. it's something i didn't include, but it's a very good point in that we can assume that others may have similar motivations to us, when in fact they may be giving a quite deliberate mis-impression for their own reasons. so we also need to consider the source as being relevant, which can often be impossible.

thanks again, emoticon man for your input. it's very much appreciated

mig XX

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