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ProfCS101
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Siege Frigate Spam Needs Nerf

February 5, 2008 4:14:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Right now it is possible to spam 20+ siege frigates and ninja take out any planet (irrelevent of the defenses) before any possible response can be achieved. Frankly, this lame tactic is used by the AI regularly.

Either lower the planetary damage of siege frigates or implement some kind of system where you must eliminate defenses first. It is IMPOSSIBLE to defend a planet with structures from all 6 sides (or anything short of a huge fleet when you get spammed by 20+ siege frigs). The power of siege frigs have turned this game in to musical chairs (who can knock out who's planets most frequently).
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ProfCS101
heflys
Join Date 01/2008
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Reply #1 February 5, 2008 4:20:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I say that's a sign of intelligent a.i. Pretty amusing really. 20+ Siege frigates!! ROFL!!
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ProfCS101
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Reply #2 February 5, 2008 4:22:10 AM
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Yeah, one of the AIs in the game I was playing most recently had a huge fleet of siege frigates flying all over the place. They ignored my colony frigates, though, so I just positioned one at each planet. They'd destroy the colony, it'd rebuild automatically, but I agree this is too much.
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ProfCS101
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Reply #3 February 5, 2008 4:23:41 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
just need emergency defense, and then they can only get max. one planet from you
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ProfCS101
Tsed
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Reply #4 February 5, 2008 4:35:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
*giggle*

Can we at least wait a week before yelling "NERF!"?
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ProfCS101
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Reply #5 February 5, 2008 4:38:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

*giggle*

Can we at least wait a week before yelling "NERF!"?


Have you played the game yet? That's the primary AI strategy. Spam a planet with siege frigates, rinse, repeat. It's no fun rebuilding your colonies every minute.
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ProfCS101
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Reply #6 February 5, 2008 4:41:51 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

just need emergency defense, and then they can only get max. one planet from you


I keep it maxed out on every planet. The problem is even with that, sometimes your primary fleet will be jumps away and won't reach it in time to save the colony.

The other problem is the complete and utter worthlessness of defensive structures. Hangers don't do enough damage to save the planet (I've had three hangers maxed with bombers and not saved an emergency defense planet in time). The gun turrets are worthless as well (since the range got nerfed so badly in beta).

The only resolution to this that I can see is weaken the damage of the siege frigates or make gun turrets range larger (so at least they can cover the entire planet).
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ProfCS101
heflys
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Reply #7 February 5, 2008 4:42:35 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I always find it amusing/interesting when the a.i. utilizes exploits and bugs. It seems so bizarre....
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ProfCS101
Blair Fraser
Join Date 10/2006
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Reply #8 February 5, 2008 4:43:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

This was a problem before release and they were nerfed a fair bit. We'll look at it again for the next round. The suggestion at the moment is to increase their cost. With decent scouting and probing and preparedness (EMF and DEF) it should be fairly easily countered and then you know he's way behind because he wasted so many resources on a dead product and you can nail him. I rarely leave the local vicinity until I know what the enemy is up to, where he is, what he's got and I have a wide enough sensor net to detect a siege push early enough to do something about it. If you don't know about them until they are at the front door then its GG. But again, the concern could still be valid and we'll be reviewing it again very soon

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ProfCS101
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Reply #9 February 5, 2008 4:43:48 AM
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God I love this new AI, the pirates annoy tho. The AI definately wont let you over extend, you gotta get some bunkers built and some guns around before you move on.
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ProfCS101
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Reply #10 February 5, 2008 4:45:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Yeah, a planetary shields upgrade would be nice to give system defences a chance to do its job. Then again enough bomber squadrons and fleet ships can make a difference, though your planet is certainly going to take some abuse. Gun turrest work, but you have to give careful consideration to how you layer your defenses (mutiple layers of overlapping fire zones help a lot).
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ProfCS101
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Reply #11 February 5, 2008 4:51:51 AM
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hi all
The one thing i do wish that they made the planet sheild easeyer to get to in the begining of the game.
i.e. drop the amount of reserch centers requierd to get it that would stop that tactic as you have to first destroy the turrets garding the sheild gen and then destroy the gen befor you can bomb a planet.
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ProfCS101
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Reply #12 February 5, 2008 4:53:33 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

This was a problem before release and they were nerfed a fair bit. We'll look at it again for the next round. The suggestion at the moment is to increase their cost. With decent scouting and probing and preparedness (EMF and DEF) it should be fairly easily countered and then you know he's way behind because he wasted so many resources on a dead product and you can nail him. I rarely leave the local vicinity until I know what the enemy is up to, where he is, what he's got and I have a wide enough sensor net to detect a siege push early enough to do something about it. If you don't know about them until they are at the front door then its GG. But again, the concern could still be valid and we'll be reviewing it again very soon



Glad to hear it. I am the kind of player who likes to build defenses up and then go off raiding. That's impossible at the moment when anyone can take out your capital (which instantly kills your alligance, also killing your income) within seconds with a siege frigate spam.

God forbid you lose your capital to this strategy. By the time you rebuild, your alligence is so weakened (and the rate at which is recovers can take literally an hour+) that you might as well surrender.
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Reply #13 February 5, 2008 5:07:41 AM
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Glad to hear it. I am the kind of player who likes to build defenses up and then go off raiding. That's impossible at the moment when anyone can take out your capital (which instantly kills your alligance, also killing your income) within seconds with a siege frigate spam.



Within seconds? Is the a.i. cheating?

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ProfCS101
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Reply #14 February 5, 2008 5:13:00 AM
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Within seconds? Is the a.i. cheating?

I think he misphrased. He probably meant that his capital is taken out within seconds of the siege frigate spam engaging him.
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ProfCS101
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Reply #15 February 5, 2008 5:13:24 AM
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Within seconds? Is the a.i. cheating?

Depending on the number of siege frigates, a planet could die easily under a minute (with no emergency upgrades maybe 30 seconds). This is at 12ish frigates which is very easy to get. Add more and you can imagine...

Also keep in mind, that in this same time, three turrets and six bomber squads will kill two or three at most.

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Blair Fraser
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Reply #16 February 5, 2008 5:17:37 AM
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Consider so what that is costing the enemy - siege cost almost as much as high level heavies...that is quite a sacrifice that should be exploited.

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Reply #17 February 5, 2008 5:18:58 AM
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Seems the ships should also be weaker then. Man, I just can't get over the fact that the a.i. is actually exploiting this....
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ProfCS101
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Reply #18 February 5, 2008 5:19:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Consider so what that is costing the enemy - siege cost almost as much as high level heavies...that is quite a sacrifice that should be exploited.




Incorrect. In that 60 seconds that you are taking out the planet, three turrets and six bomber squads will take out two or three frigates at most. After that you can retreat your uber-fleet. So at the cost of taking out a capital (permanetly crippling your enemies econ), you've lost maybe 3 frigates.

Try it out for yourself. You'll see.
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Blair Fraser
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Reply #19 February 5, 2008 5:21:20 AM
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I meant in reference to my previous post. I agree that if you let him show up at the front door unnoticed its game over.  Scouting, sensor nets, preparations, thinking ahead are very important, particular against a siege attack - but if you know ahead, you can counter it and exploit the massive resources he spent on such a specialized force.
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Reply #20 February 5, 2008 5:26:09 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I meant in reference to my previous post. I agree that if you let him show up at the front door unnoticed its game over.


It's game over if you do notice. The only defense against such an attack is a huge fleet already waiting at the planet. Since many galaxies contain multiple entry points to each planet, your enemies fleet may be based only one or two jumps away. If your fleet is occupied at another planet, they will not arrive in time under any circumstance to prevent the nuking of your planet. It may be "expensive" to build such a large fleet, but considering the crushing blow of losing a capital or one of your primary planets, it will always be worth it, especially if it is a 3+ player game and you have no active front with the enemy which you are siege nuking (sneak the fleet in).
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Reply #21 February 5, 2008 5:27:00 AM
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Have you played the game yet? That's the primary AI strategy. Spam a planet with siege frigates, rinse, repeat. It's no fun rebuilding your colonies every minute.


Yep. Got through a pair of games today. A quick 1 hour small, and a long 7 hour med, all with Hard/Random AIs. Haven't had that problem. I just think it'd be a little prudent to let things settle a bit before calling for the nerf. If your opponent is able to afford that before you're getting decent defenses up, it sounds like something might be up.

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Blair Fraser
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Reply #22 February 5, 2008 5:29:31 AM
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Yes, we are waiting for a general concensus and some more detailed in-house analysis of the current balance. Let's just see how the numbers go this week. Perhaps there is an evolving counter strategy that will become next week's dominate and make the siege one obsolete. That's the way rts's go sometimes, not always, but sometimes. We are keeping a close eye on it.
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Reply #23 February 5, 2008 5:29:37 AM
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Better keep a fleet close to home for defense...thats what ships are for.
This is where intelligence and sensors come into play.

Like Blair said, if that opponent has 20 siege frig, than it will not have the battle fleet necessary to defend itself.

that is quite a sacrifice that should be exploited.

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Reply #24 February 5, 2008 5:33:40 AM
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Define "decent defenses," Tsed.

I'd consider 4 turrets and two hangers to be a decent defense of a planet that is behind the front.

A planet defended by this would kill nearly nothing before being nuked.

How about a planet with two caps and about 14 frigates plus three hangers and six turrets?

Still gets nuked before destroying half a 20 ship siege fleet (with a carrier added in carrying fighters to counter the hanger bombers). In this case it's my capital (maxed upgrades) and I've now certainly lost the game. This occurs by a MEDIUM AI in the first 30 minutes.
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ProfCS101
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Reply #25 February 5, 2008 5:37:36 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Better keep a fleet close to home for defense...thats what ships are for.
This is where intelligence and sensors come into play.

Like Blair said, if that opponent has 20 siege frig, than it will not have the battle fleet necessary to defend itself.

that is quite a sacrifice that should be exploited.




That's the best part of the siege spam strategy. You don't NEED a fleet to defend your own holdings. If you nuke the enemies capital, their alligence will be weakened to the point where they cannot afford their current planets much less to expand. I've gone from 100% alligence to 43% in the two minutes it took me to replace my capital. It will take an hour for it to regen to 100%. This is applied universe wide to all planets you currently own cutting your income by 50-70%.

This is an unrecoverable result. If my traditional attack fleet does succeed in knocking out one or two of their planets, it will exhaust it's self on their defense and I will not be able to rebuild for a very long time.

The risk versus reward for a siege nuke strategy is way out of whack.
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